A Magnificent Evening: The Twelfth Siyum HaShas 2012

by rabbifink on August 2, 2012 · 78 comments

The Twelfth Siyum HaShas was the most incredible event I have ever had the privilege of attending. The Siyum was almost perfect and I am considered a critic.

All kinds of orthodox Jews were there. Some were dressed in chasidic garb, others in yeshivish garb, many in professional attire, some in casual wear, others in business casual styles. Every kind of hat and yarmulka was represented. I saw them all with my own eyes. At one point everyone in the stadium was dancing and you could see circles of as diverse a group of orthodox Jews one could find. Truly, the Torah is the great equalizer and celebrating a Siyum HaShas brought (almost) all of us together.

Agudath Israel of America put on a spectacular show and I was greatly impressed by their production. The Siyum was as professional event I have ever attended. The speakers mostly spoke beautifully. The video tributes were slick and very well done. The music was excellent. The programs were lovely. The overall attitude and atmosphere of the Siyum was positive and filled with joy.

That is the way it is done. Wow.

I want to mention a few particular specifics that made an impact on me.

First, the wow moment. I, like so many others, arrived late. But it was to my benefit that I arrived late. The stadium was probably 95% full when I got there and when I emerged from the tunnel to the stands, the experience of popping my head into a stadium filled to the brim with my brothers and sisters took my breath away. It was awe-inspiring. That moment brought tears to my eyes. That was before I heard a single word of Torah or a single bar of music.

Second, the primary speakers were outstanding. Rabbi Frand took the house down. He spoke eloquently, powerfully, and passionately. His message was that the Daf has a special power to urge us to do more and try harder in our Avodas Hashem. He ended with a great line: “Beyond your reach is within your grasp”. We can do more than we think we can do and the Daf pushes us in the right way. I was proud to share yeshiva allegiances with Rabbi Frand. It was a great moment for Ner Israel.

The surprise of the night for me was Rav Scheiner. I had very little prior experience with Rav Scheiner. Apparently he and my grandfather were best friends in yeshiva and he learned under my great-great grandfather from the other side, Reb Elya Lopian. Anyway, Rav Scheiner was masterful. He is a gadol from Israel but was born in America. His English was perfect (yes, he spoke in English) and his messages were timeless. He took every possible opportunity to heap praise on Rabbi Frand. It was very impressive to see a 90 year old Gadol HaDor shower Rabbi Frand with so many effusive compliments. His charisma and charm burst through his words. His genuine care and love for others was able to be felt as he spoke. His main point was that we should all try to commit to starting the Daf and that we should strengthen ourselves in unity and also learn the laws of forbidden speech to promote good will and harmony in Klal Yisrael. He was great. I hope we hear more from him in the future. A lot more.

Rabbi Lau was as good as expected. One can only imagine the emotion that he must feel at events like these. Here is a man who survived the death camps at the age of eight years old. He probably never thought he would survive and certainly I cannot imagine he dreamed he would ever speak before nearly 100,000 people in a football stadium celebrating seven and half years of dedicated Talmud study for the twelfth time. But that is exactly what happened and Rabbi Lau, in his inimitable style, conveyed that message along with many others.

Third, the video presentations were so politically correct, inclusive, and diverse. They were each very professionally produced and they did not feel amateur at all. These were super high quality videos. The attention to detail, their moments, and their universality were really very appreciated. The two gentlemen who proclaimed that they had finished Shas 5 and 6 times in the tribute to the teachers of the Daf were both from the modern Orthodox community. This willingness to step outside the yeshivaworld box made the videos even better than they would have been if they were more monolithic.

Finally, I want to make two observations.

First, I want to compare the Siyum to the Asifa. It is so much more inspirational when one stands for something as opposed to standing against something. The Siyum stands for Torah and for unity. The Asifa stood against the Internet. The impact of the Siyum, which did not ban or prohibit anything, was in my opinion several times more than the positive impact of the Asifa. You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. The speakers spoke with smiles on their faces. The atmosphere was so positive and so optimistic that I have to believe the Siyum was very inspirational for many people. Part of the reason for that was the good attitude and pleasant spirit of the event.

This point could be demonstrated by comparing two statements. At the Asifa, “R’ Wachsman said that since all of Klal Yisrael is gathering together for an event, notwithstanding the fact that only a small sliver of the Jewish population was present at the Asifa, whatever edicts were initiated at the event would be binding on all Jews and if someone was not present at the Asifa, they were bound as well. Anyone who would not listen to the edicts was to be considered a defector and would lose their portion in the next world.” (The Asifa is Done: I Was Fooled)

At the Siyum, Rav Scheiner said we should take the inspiration of the evening and as Rabbi Frand suggested, we make a plan. Rav Scheiner’s suggested plan for us was that we should all try to learn a daf a day and join the Daf Yomi movement and study the writings of the Chofetz Chaim. But he emphasized several times that we should say “Bli Neder”. We shouldn’t obligate ourselves with a promise, we should just try our best.

Do you see the difference? I do. It’s a big difference.

Second, I want to talk about Agudah. The Siyum HaShas is an Agudah production. I cannot tell you how incredibly the Siyum was produced. There were very modern multimedia presentations, there was music, there were intellectually stimulating speeches, there was very little “mussar”, and zero negative energy. The Siyum used the past for perspective but focused mostly on the future. There seemed to be a concerted effort to use technology and present orthodox Judaism as modern and appealing. I give Agudah all the credit in the world for creating such a wonderful Siyum atmosphere.

But then I think of the Agudah Convention and I can’t help but think that it is almost impossible to believe that the two events are run by the same organization! At the conventions, orthodoxy is very narrow and the focus is on tradition and the past.  The Agudah Conventions do not resemble the Siyum at all! In fact the Siyum was so good that it might even outweigh the 7 years of Agudah Conventions between Siyums.

So there are two options here. Either Agudah will use this Siyum as a foundation for the future. They will embrace modernity to a certain degree and present a contemporary version of traditional orthodoxy and the convention will being to resemble the Siyum in attitude and production. Or the Siyum was an anomaly and the convention will be the same ol’, same ol’. I really, really hope it is the former. I want Agudah to be successful. I want Agudah to be relevant. I want Agudah to be the somewhat progressive, but traditionally orthodox organization it was when my grandfather was involved in the Agudah in the 50′s and 60′s. The Siyum style Agudah can be that organization. Hopefully, they will be that organization in the future.

The Siyum was absolutely amazing. I know I am inspired after being there. I know my son had a very special experience at the Siyum as well. I could not have asked for a better Siyum experience. Thank you Agudath Isreal of America. Next time I hope to be making a Siyum along with the rest of the Daf Yomi learners. And I hope you will too.

  • ahg

    You can look at the differences between the siyum Nd the conventions a couple different ways. But First, I have heard that this siyum was itself very different than the last one in it’s inclusiveness. Would you agree?

    As to the differences with the siyum and conventions:
    1: you can simply explain it as different messages for different audiences. The siyum is clearly an event that they look to attract Jews from outside their sphere and they did a better job last night than in the past. The conventions are more internally focused.

    The second way is similar but more cynical. It’s the difference between a yeshiva shmooze for the bochrim and the annual banquet. At the former college, even YU will be spoken about in a derisive manner, while at the banquet they put on a dog and pony show for the larger community of donors many of whom are college educated and even the other Rabbis present may include YU musmachim.

    I would like to think that Agudah “got it” on their own and it represents an internal awakening. But, the cynical part of me wonders if those MO rabbis in the video were interviewed before or after the MO siyum was announced, and this was in response to that. They want to keep the MO happy so that they don’t lose their position as the dominant siyum and the cash, and cache that comes with it.

    • nirc1

      Some of these videos were taken 2 years ago – and have been mostly complete for several months. The Masmidei Hasiyum one was the newest

      • ahg

        I’m glad to hear that.

  • http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

    A great recap.

    BTW – The Phrase is: a spoonful of honey will catch more flies than a gallon of vinegar. The measurements in the phrase make it powerful…

  • Yanky57

    Nice summary. Can you clarify about something else – I saw a photo that looked like there were curtains in front of the women sections. Was it really like that? I find that horribly disgusting. I can understand the idea of a religious man not wanting to see a woman that might be distracting, but in a stadium this size the seats with the women are so far away as to make them virtually indistinguishable, so what can justify taking these measures? Is it so terrible for these religious men to even see a tiny speck of a woman?

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      The Siyum was six hours long. The Mechitza was used for about 35 minutes during Mincha and Maaeiv only. It was to create a necessary halachic separation, not to hide the women. There was nothing offensive or inappropriate about it.

      • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

        I thought this was very well executed.

      • guest

        actually,you don’t NEED a mechitzah if its not an established minyan. this comes up often at
        weddings and such.

        • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

          theres were complete sections of men side by side with women – very rarely would orthdox men feel comfortable davening like that. At a wedding the women go sit down or walk around while the men daven. this was sitting basically along side. Not worth nitpicking.

      • Yanky57

        Thanks for the clarification. If it was only for davening, even though I don’t think it’s necessary in this kind of situation, I don’t really find it problematic at all.

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          Might not be necessary but the people on attendance certainly appreciated it.

          • Yanky57

            Upon further reflection, I realized that your explanation is insufficient. If they wanted to create a mechitza between nearby sections of men and women (an understandable position), there would have only had to be a curtain between those sections. Putting up curtains in front of all the rest of the women is simply another example of the attitude that women should not be seen at all, something I find to be horribly offensive and anti-torah.

            • Avrohom Eliezer Friedman

              While it may not have been technically necessary, there were plenty of people there who would have felt very uncomfortable davening without one (whether or not you think they are justified to feel that way). Rabbi Fink mentioned that they were being “politically correct, inclusive, and diverse”.
              I think included in that would be putting up a mechitzah for 35 minutes as to not make thousands of people uncomfortable. I haven’t heard a single woman who was there complain about it (although I’m sure there were.) Being inclusive and diverse means trying to find the grounds that is as “good for everyone” as you can get, not “doing things the way I happen to think is right”. I think they did an excellent job with the mechitza in using it when they should and not using it when they shouldn’t. (Oh and btw – fun fact – that mechitza that was used for 35 minutes – cost them $100,000)

  • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

    I tweeted this last night, but the Siyum is about the Balei Batim, and not the Rabbonim. It is the chance for the Rabbonim to praise the Balei Batim, and to inspire. Daf Yomi is not for Yeshivas, its for those of us who are no longer or never were in Yeshiva. The Rabbonim give the shiurim, inspire and encourage us, but it is us who do it. My Rebbe said in a shmooze years ago that there have always been and always will be the Gedolim, the Rabbonim. What we need is Balei Batim. For one night the Agudah and the Rabbonim, instead of yelling AT us about what we don’t do, can look and praise us, and inspire us for what we do do. When it comes down to it, 100′s of thousands of people from all walks of Orthodoxy sit down with a gemarah every day and learn, and that’s a big deal.
    Agudah put on a great event and kudos to them. Mazal tov to all of the mesaymim.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=509509604 Shlomo Pill

      Indeed, I believe the Kaminetz R’Y said something to that effect. IIRC he spoke about how we have succeeded in recovering the limud Torah that we once had in Europe before the War (okay, I personally don’t see a need to do so, but he is entitled to use the good old alter heim mythology in an inspirational speech context), but that the level of learning and dedication by working baalei battim that we have now is something unprecedented, and that in this we have indeed surpassed our forebears.

  • A Proud Jew

    This was a beautiful message – until negative remarks against one event was used to elevate another. This isn’t a true Jewish attitude – nor is mentioning Rav Wachsman, a towering talmid chochom, by name in such a to e. The unity you expressed so beautifully didn’t seem to carry over so well. It isn’t necessary to bring out glory by casting away others.

  • Chaim

    what yidden really need to learn is Chasidus; as Moshiach answered the Baal Shem Tov when asked, “when is the Master coming?” Moshiach replied: “when the wellsprings of your teachings spread forth.” Unfortunately, with all the hype at something like a siyum hashas the rabbis fail to lead in the appropriate direction.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Seriously?

  • AgudahFan

    How do you define the term “progressive”, which is what you say Agudah not only should be but has to be in order to be “relevant”? I believe you assume it to mean going against the word of our Gedolim, Tzaddikim and Daas Torah in general. Thankfully, that won’t happen. We’ll enjoy remaining regressive if it means fighting for kavod haTorah. You can join the OU

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Are you delusional?

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Progressive simply means with an eye to the future and he ability to adapt as times change within the context of Halacha and guidance from the gedolim. Professional video presentations are an example of progressive traditional orthodoxy.

      • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

        Exactly how Rav Scachter describes modern orthodoxy. Guess who wasn’t invited to speak?

        • funnyman817

          rumor has it marcos katz wanted either r schachter or r yaakov hillel to speak and RHS wanted no part of it.

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          It’s also how Agudah once described their orthodoxy. Starting to see the point here?

  • Eli

    Rabbi fink I’m wondering why it doesn’t bother you that not one YU Rosh yeshiva was in the front row of the dais. Blatant demeaning discrimination. Rav Schachter is 71 already, is from New York his whole life, it is simply unforgivable. When are they going to do serious tshuvah?

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      It bothers me a little. But the event was so not about the dais. It’s about the Daf and celebrating Torah.

  • Elliot Pasik

    All the hate speech from so many Aguda Conventions, all of the abuse, the cover up, the obfuscations, the denials, get swept away by a “spectacular show” – your words. The “show”, apparently, drowned out the screams of abused children jumping from buildings to their suicide deaths. Or dying slowly from drugs and booze. Rabbi Fink, did you read the latest Internet story of Gabriel Kirshner, abused by “Rabbi” Ephraim Shapiro at age 13 at Talmudical Academy in Baltimore. Gabriel killed himself, via carbon monoxide in a car, at age 36, leaving a widow and orphan behind. Exactly how much misery is enough for one to decide not to attend an Aguda siyum ha’shas. Apparently, the poskim have not calculated this equation. Rabbi Fink, did you see the You Tube speech of your uncle, Ronnie Greenwald? He has four suicide notes of abused teenage girls. Speaking for myself, I don’t compartmentalize the Torah and Yiddishkeit. Its my way of life, and I don’t attend a “show” sponsored by a patently immoral organization. The real kiddush Hashem would have been for one rabbi (where there are no men, be a man) to stand up and say, I’m not going to the Aguda “show”, because child sexual abuse makes me sick. But that didn’t happen, and its too late now.

    Elliot Pasik, Esq.
    President, Jewish Board of
    Advocates for Children

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Right. Abuse is terrible. I don’t disagree. Nor did I imply otherwise. You can look at the event in its own and judge it as I did. Or you can ignore the good. Your choice.

      • Elliot Pasik

        At least the modern orthodox rabbis who did attend are wise enough to withhold effusive praise for Aguda. Unlike you, they see both the sins and the siyum. At my own shul, Young Israel of Long Beach (NY), the event was advertised simply as Siyum Ha’Shas, with no mention of Aguda, and this type of approach was utilized by many others. You talk about choice, and you chose to learn Torah with those who have committed grave sins. I don’t.

    • A Proud Jew

      It isn’t fair to punish the many for the few. Although one may find several issues with the event, I believe that with an event that has so much positive, one must put aside the negative. But, as with any event, such as the Asifa, anyone can choose to attend or not. It doesn’t have to represent everyone – and that’s perfectly alright. The Asifa and/or Siyum could be a meaningful experience for some and not others. Perhaps we shouldn’t fight our battles from one front to another. We fight issues head-on without the need for unnecessary negativity for others. There are children being abused – we need to fight that! There are people with addictions, such as drugs, alcohol, gambling, on-line “immodesty” – we need to fight that. All in the right way at the right time. Just my thought.

  • K Alter

    Rabbi, Very well said. I had the same feeling of inspiration, positiveness and emotion. Ken Alter

  • Eliezer Eisenberg

    Well said, and well defended against those who insist on finding a good reason to avoid being inspired by the event. Life is not perfect: politics are inevitable; reality intrudes; nuance can be painful. But if you didn’t erect a moat and a barbed wire fence, you came away inspired and motivated.

    I believe you were sitting near me, in section 137 up toward the wall.

  • Mit-seichel

    It’s great to read something positive about the charedi world on this site, but your snide, and completely uncalled for, bashing of the Citi Field Asifa negates anything you may have accomplished with this post. Your simpleton characterization of Citi Field as standing “against something” is just shallow.

    Citi Field stood for kedusha, shemiras einayim and a determination to sacrifice pleasure and convenience on behalf of Hashem. Despite all the previous naysaying, the amount of yidden (some goyim too) who were inspired towards tangible positive change by Rabbi Wachsman and others at Citi Field is absolutely amazing.

    Yes, the gedolim stressed the dangers of the Internet and some of the evil it can represent without proper safeguarding -and I’m glad they did. Use all the cliches about honey and vinegar you want, but Dovid Hamelech told us millennia ago “Sur m’rah v’aaseh tov.” Before we can be properly inspired by the beauty and positivity of Torah and Yiddishkeit, we must work on distancing ourselves from the yetzer hora and his tools.

    Chazal talk about people who learn Torah without being an appropriate vessel for it; it’s called “nezem zahav b’af chazir,” a gold ring on the nose of a pig. There are countless Gemaras talking about recognizing the yetzer hora and how he entraps people. They tell us that “Ki setze lamilchama al oyvecha” -declaring war on our enemy- refers to the “Milchemes hayetzer” against the yetzer hora.

    Yes, “war” against the yetzer hora isn’t pretty, positive and flowery, but the yidden throughout the generations who engaged in battle against his “feel good” promises are what enabled us to be here today, learn Torah, and celebrate grand Siyumim.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      I do hope you appreciate the irony or posting comments about the success of the Asifa ON THE BANNED INTERNET.

      • Mit-seichel

        I admire your courage in responding to the content of the argument I made

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          Sarcasm is the protest of the weak. – John Knowles

          • Avigayil

            Why don’t you just respond to his point.

            • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

              I’m on mobile. I will later. I always do.

        • MarkSoFla

          The problem is that the “content” of your comment is mostly a fabrication – it is what we all expected the asifa to be about. We expected it to be about how to protect yourself and your family from the evil that lurks on the Internet. Instead we got an outright ban. And to add insult to injury, we were told that anyone who attended the asifa, just by virtue of their attendance, was bound to that ruling under penalty of losing their chelek in olam haba!

          If you want to see something better and closer to what the asifa should have been, take a look at R’ Gil Student’s series of videos about the Internet -

          http://torahmusings.com/2012/07/the-internet-shiur-part-6/

          • Mit-seichel

            No. Granted, the program could definitely have been run a lot better, but it was not an outright ban. The Rabbanim of the Ichud Hakehillos, which arranged the event, have clearly stated when and how the Internet can be used, and have set up (and are working on setting up) TAG and similar offices around the globe to help people use the Internet when necessary with the least potential for damage. I’ve personally been in contact with my local TAG office, under the guidance of Rav Mattisyahu Salamon, shlit”a, on several occasions to safeguard my Internet usage, and they never told me that I was banned from using it.

            • MarkSoFla

              but it was not an outright ban.

              It was indeed an outright ban, here is the psak halacha from the posek hador, Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner Baal Shevet HaLevi, that spoke to the asifa – http://twitpic.com/af2n2p

      • A Proud Jew

        There’s no irony. People really have to stop saying that. Not everyone understood the Asifa as an outright ban, rather as an event to inspire kedusha and safety. I don’t believe that a comment here opposes that. But he’s right about the unnecessary negativity. Please recognize that. It doesn’t enhance the siyum.

        • ahg

          Not everyone understood the Asifa as an outright ban,

          Not everyone understands the Torah’s statements on pure and impure animals as outright ban on eating pig. Doesn’t make it logical, correct, or even agreeing with a “common sense” understanding. You can choose to skew what was said anyway you want, but recognize that’s your way of dealing with the obviously cognitive dissonance that must go along with being on the Internet while pledging fealty to “daas torah”.

          • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

            Right on.

          • A Proud Jew

            There is no cognitive dissonance here. Each speaker at the Asifa took different tones regarding Internet use. But once more, I did not attend, nor do I necessarily share the views of those who spoke – though I respect what they said and believe that they have the right to share their thoughts with those that follow them – full ban, partial ban, non-business ban, etc. Those who went should have been those who associate themselves with one or more of the speakers. A person who attends a Met vs. Yankee game while being a fan of a third, rival team will most likely slander both of them. I continue to propose the concept that people certainly have the right to their views without slandering those with different views. I do not have to justify my use of the Internet, though perhaps others should justify why they feel it necessary to share negative thoughts about others. It is nothing shy of lashon hara d’Oraysa. Your feelings and reflections about an Asifa, Siyum or any other event is your own personal business – and right, if you wish. However, sharing it publicly, although you surely can, is simply not right. Now, if you want to criticize any of my statements, so be it – you have that right. But negativity is negativity – and loshon hara is lashon hara.

            • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

              @aproudjew:disqus: I don’t think you actually heard what was said at the Asifa. Almost nothing about filters was even mentioned. The only words spoken about whether or not to use the Internet were “Ban”. The only question was whether the ban was even in one’s place of business or only in the home.

              Thank you for your psak on lashon hara. You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that saying negative things about a disaster of an event is lashon tov.

      • Jacob

        Are you saying that the posek hador Rav Wosner is not Daas Torah

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charlie-Hall/683997138 Charlie Hall

          He isn’t my posek.

          • JOSH

            But he is your rabbis posek

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Here’s the thing. The Asifa was a fraud. It was sold as an evening to learn about how to use the Internet properly. The speakers hijacked the event and unequivocally prohibited the use of the Internet for almost every use.

      I don’t know who you are referring to, but the lay people, rabbanim, and Roshei Yeshiva that I spoke to felt the Asifa was a disaster. They felt there was no tangible inspiration and people had to grasp at straws to find anything positive about the event.

      Your characterization in this line: Yes, the gedolim stressed the dangers of the Internet and some of the evil it can represent without proper safeguarding is a lie. They did not do that at all. The psak was “get off the Internet”. End.

      Sure, there have been many takanos and gzeiros made for kedushas klal yisrael, the Internet is a risky place. The Asifa did absolutely NOTHING to help people deal with the Internet. It was scare tactics at best and misinformed at worst.

      Please explain this line of thinking: “The rabbis at the Asifa assured the Internet, I am not going to listen to them, but I am inspired anyway.” Honestly, it makes no sense.

      I feel no need to support the Asifa. Every single rebbe, rav, and gadol I have discussed the Asifa with agrees with me.

      • moshe

        Which Rov or Rebbe did you speak to that you say tht they agree with you, I guess it can’t be anyone HEIMISH, the way you think and write it must of been either reform or conservative.

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          Haha. First of all, the opposite of Heimish is not reform or conservative. Second of all, they were all black hat, yeshivish.

          • Izzy

            so I guess you are someone that doesnt hold of daas torah, you had there all the leading rabonim from all circles and you are against of what they said. so you are someone that one shouldn’t have anything to do with. I am suprised that from daf hayomi or agudah you do hold of.

            • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

              I guess you don’t hold of Daas Torah either seeing as you are on the Internet.

              • izzy

                You look like that you are nebech a lost case a tinok shenisbo, I guess you went to METLIFE for the fun of it . I hope you had fun.(next time don’t waste your time going when there is daas torah there, you are better of going for a game)

                • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                  You don’t make any sense. No offense.

                  • izzy

                    Nebech, you dont understand

                    • MarkSoFla

                      I think the problem is that we do understand. You believe, mistakenly, that one cannot be frum without believing in Daas Torah.

                    • izzy

                      YOU SAID IT CORRECT, you hit the nail on the head, if you don’t believe in Daas Torah one cannot be frum. Daas Torah is the way is supposed to go with, the torah is what makes us different.

                    • MarkSoFla

                      Not only is Daas Torah a bad idea, it is also impossible (because the greatest of Rabbis routinely disagree with each other … in every generation).

                    • izzy

                      Are you Jewish

                    • MarkSoFla

                      LOL. How about you tell us your definition of “Daas Torah”.

                    • izzy

                      I don’t need a definition of Daas Torah, you just listen to what your rabbis say and advise you to do, but please tell us yours, because it really must be intresting, as you don’t seem to hold of anything and make fun

                    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                      You do realize that one could have two rabbis who disagree. What do you do then?

                    • jacob

                      Are you saying that the POSEK HADOR Rav Wosner is not Daas Torah

                    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                      A) I dispute the idea that one man can unilaterally create a prohibition out of thin air. B) I dispute your use of the term Daas Torah as it applies to Internet bans. C) How are you on the Internet? According to your POSEK HADOR and official Daas Torah spokesman the Internet is assur.

                    • Jacob

                      I SEE THAT YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OUR GREAT GEDOLIM. HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT RAV WOSNER IS A ONE MAN WHEN HE IS THE POSEK HADOR. HOW DARE YOU SAY HE CREATED THE PROHBITION OUT OF THIN AIR WHEN HE IS THE TORAH. “YOU MAY BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF” !!!

                    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                      Is he not one man? And how dare you be motzi la’az on all fine, ehrliche yidden who follow other poskim who do not prohibit the Internet. At least I claim to have a few people who approve of Internet use on my side. You, however, think that one has to listen to the POSEK HADOR who prohibited the Internet. So again, what’s your heter?!

                    • Jacob

                      I went on because somene showed me your write up about the siyum. No he is not 1 man, “HE IS THE MAN” and whoever says different then him is going against HASHEM, if you don’t believe in the posek hador, you don’t believe in hashem, it goes together ויאמינו בה’ ובמשה עבדו

                    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                      I find your version of Judaism offensive. But either way, what is YOUR heter to go against the holy words of Rav Wosner?

                    • MarkSoFla

                      You brought up Daas Torah yesterday in your comment here –
                      http://finkorswim.com/2012/08/02/a-magnificent-evening-the-twelfth-siyum-hashas-2012/#comment-611272092

                      How could you bring something up that you have no definition for????

                    • dovid

                      How can you say that you can be frum without daas torah, the torah is what make us different form any other nation, our rabonim are our mentors, if you don’t believe in our rabonim you don’t beleive in hashem.

                    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

                      What you just said might be avodah zara.

  • moshe

    I see one thing that you fall for the money proparganda, how can you knock CitiField that was the biggest kidush hashem thatklal yisroel came together because they wanted to fix problem, you didn’t have speakers that have millions of dollars or are barely shomer shabbos. Why if the whole thing was supposedly torah, did the hesped on Moron Rav Eliyashiv come only fter 3.5 hours in the program but for Schottenstein (the money) did it come right at the begining ? Why at CitiField were the tickets only $10 and the bus $5. And at the agudah party ….? I think you should really rethink what you wrote.

  • A Proud Jew

    One reflective comment on the well-meaning article and all the various comments: Why can’t people within the spectrum of Judaism simply take in whatever they experience, whenever they experience it, and learn from those experiences – without comment?! Why do we all feel that we have the patent on reality and have right to tell everyone else what to learn from everything – good and bad? If you were inspired in a positive way, share the positive. If you weren’t inspired in the same way, you have that right – but why post about it … and share the negative? Why do we feel that the world should share our every view? You want to go to a siyum? Go and be blessed. You enjoyed it and gained from it – share your beautiful thoughts with others. If you didn’t, that’s fine too. But it isn’t necessary to tell everyone why! Just move on. The same holds true of an asifa, or any event.

    • A Proud Jew

      Let’s learn to respect one another. Let’s stop negative remarks. No?

  • brooklyn breslover

    Rav Fink’s impressions of the Siyum I can relate to, and
    basically I had the same take. His comparisons to the Agudah Conventions (which
    I know almost nothing about), and fervernt wish that Agudah should continue the
    New Persona of the 12th Siyum Hashas, is a very common wish. For 2,000 years
    many jews wished that Yiddishkeit would come out of the box – and have a more
    contemporary and inclusive Gehfil. Some managed to do some of that in different
    ways and still remain Orthodox e.g.; Rabbeinu Moshe Ben Maimon zt”l, Rav
    Shamshon Refael Hirsch zt”l. Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer zt”l but they weren’t so
    inclusive as R’ Fink would like, even Rav J. B. Soloveitchik zt”l wasn’t so
    inclusive.

    As for the
    comparison of the Asifa to the Siyum, I must say it is intellectually dishonest.
    No question, we would like a Torah that only says YES, R’ Shlomo Carlebach tried
    to forge his own path of basically saying YES and trying to playdown the NO.
    Well, watch what happens as it unfolds in the long run! Rav Hirsch expresses it
    succinctly “the Torah isn’t mans ideas about God, but God’s ideas about man”.
    Whether you agree or not, the Boireh Kol Ha’olomim has His rights! He chose to
    reveal to us at Sinai not just 248 positive precepts but also 365 negative “NO”
    precepts. It is an accepted Halachik fact that on MItzvos Asey one shouldn’t
    spend more than a Chomesh – a fifth of ones income but on a Mitzvos Lo Saseh it
    is incumbent that one spend all his fortune to be saved from transgression. Even
    more so concerning the three cardinal sins of Avodah Zorah, Gilu Arayos,
    U’Shfichas Domim where one must give up his very life and not transgress.

    The Ramban
    explains how these to two apposing types of Mitzvos represent the two primary
    root categories of Avodas Hashem i.e.; Ahava – love, Yireh – fear and awe. As we
    cruise through life we need the gas peddle and equally important (if not more
    so) is the brakes. If you don’t want to accept this reality, no sentient being
    would travel with you in your vehicle. It is very easy to want the experiential
    rush and high of the YES trip, if others have done the necessary safety
    groundwork for you. Many Sifrei Kodesh expound on the primacy of “Yiras Hashem”,
    teaching that it precedes the Avoda of Ahavas Hashem. See for example Rebbe
    Nachman of Breslov’s Likutei Moharan, Chelek Alef – Torah 5, paragraph 5; he
    teaches (based on the Tikkunei Zohar, Zohar, Toras Habaal Shem Tov and the
    Mezeritcher Magid) that concerning Yirah – fear and awe of Hashem it says
    “Reishis Chochma Yiras Hashem” this is the primary true wisdom”. He goes on to
    explain how it is the Derech of a person to search for his Aveida – his lost
    property. Likewise Chazal state that it is normal for a man to search for a
    suitable wife. Man, sybolizes Ahavas Hashem, the woman *Isha Yiras Hashem” – the
    Aveida, lost property – symbolizes the fear and awe of Heaven. This means that
    Hashem’s Seder in creation is that one should first and foremost persue and
    attain Yiras Shomayim (the aspect of Isha Yirash Hashem) automatically the Ish –
    the man (Ahaves Hashem) will gravitate to you.

    Just like Chazal
    at one point found it necessary to introduce the Birchas Haminim into the Amida,
    in order to vanquish the Reshoim and say NO. Likewise the Talmidei Chasam Sofer
    published a proclamation of multiple NO in the Takkunos of 1860 – to safeguard
    the core Temimim from the inroads of Reform. In a similar vein the more modern
    and progressive Rav S. R. Hirsch in Frankfurt wrote fiery letters of exclusion
    and NO, he spared no words and invectives concerning the timid Rabbonim who
    can’t say NO. So there is a time and place for everything. So too concerning the
    Asifa – based on the people around me and many Kehillos that I know of all had
    great benefit from the Asifa. It was a catalyst – jump started by many Gedolei
    Yisroel – that gave the momentum to initiate change and improvements concerning
    the use of the internet. The heightened awareness brought a willingness to learn
    to live with boundaries, and not be enslaved by Social Media etc. and the
    exchange of vital information on how to safeguard ones family. One must have a
    kind eye, for those who are still fighting to preserve the core holiness of
    their Yiddishe Neshama – they have an unapologetic right to refuse to lower the
    bar. The holy Rebbe of Satman zt’l once commented to a certain known newspaper
    journalist (for a Yiddishe Tzeitung) who exclaimed to the Rebbe that he doesn’t
    get harmed by looking at women, the Rebbe asked him “how much does one have to
    sin in order to reach that Madreiga”!!! Often our critique of people who are
    more stringent than ourselves stems from an inner longing for purity, and
    frustration with not knowing how to implement lasting positive change.

    I have no
    problem though exploring, why we Orthodox aren’t more proactive instead of only
    reacting. Why did we have to lose thousands of Jewish girls till we made and
    accepted the Bais Yakov movement for girls. Why did we allow the loss of
    generations to Treif Posul writings till we started Chareidi Newspapers and
    Magazines. Why did we have to sleep for ten years till we made and Asifa,
    actually in this case, by being proactive we wouldn’t need an Asifa at
    all!

    All in all I
    enjoyed Rabbi Finks article, personally I’m inclined to inclusiveness so I can
    relate.

  • L120

    Rabbi Scheiner was definitely the surprise hit of the evening!

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