Turning the Page: Fixing Marriage and Custody in the Ultra-Orthodox Community

by rabbifink on March 6, 2012 · 42 comments

A lot of people seem to agree that the chasidic system (maybe even the charedi system as well) of marriage and dating needs some updating. There is also a consensus that using religion as a weapon to keep people in the fold is wrong. Most people also think that mothers should have custody of their children even if they are not religious and the father is religious.

Is there any hope that the charedi and chasidic worlds can adapt and adjust to fix these problems?

From what I am hearing, the answer is yes. Several commenters on the blog and Facebook have shared encouraging developments. It seems they are open to new ideas. In this spirit, allow me to make a few suggestions. Keep in mind, these are suggestions for insular communities. I prefer non-insular communities in general. But in the meantime, here is some advice that can be implemented within the insular communities.

First, some definitions:

Chasidic community: An insular community where the entire community is expected to conform to one way of religious life.

Chasidic dating: Parents arrange meeting between two 17-18 year olds. They meet for 30 minutes. They decline or agree to see each other again. The second date seals the deal.

Charedi community: A non-chasidic community that tries to reduce engagement with the outside world and prefers a lifestyle of exclusive Torah study over a career.

Charedi dating: Parents arrange a meeting between a preferably 18-19 year old girl and a 22-23 year old boy. They meet for 3-4 hours between 4-8 times. They get engaged and see each other a few times before the wedding 2 months later.

Dating

No one under the age of 19 should be considered for a shidduch. They are off limits. Couples should date for no fewer than 1 month and see each other a minimum of 10 times before getting engaged. Dates should be fun, encourage conversation, the conversations should include things like how excited one is about religion and if there are things that they question.

Engagements should last 3 months. The couple should see each other no less than once every two weeks. When they see one another they should have fun and enjoy each other’s company. They should have at least a preliminary conversation about intimacy before the wedding night. The teachers who will explain to them how “things work” should be extremely highly qualified and be as liberal as the community allows.

Children

Couples should be advised on matters of family planning. This is not the place to go to far into detail. But if the children of the couple will be a burden on the community, they might need to ask a shyla before having children, not vice versa. Further, when a couple has children too quickly, it can stunt the development of their relationship which is barely in its infancy after a contracted dating period and quick marriage.

When Things Go Wrong

During a marriage, one spouse may prefer a more or less religious lifestyle. This should not be immediate grounds for divorce. The goal should be happiness for the couple and keeping the family together. Men should not be defined by the way their wives act and women should not be defined by the way their husbands act. Religious compatibility does not need to be the deciding factor in marriage. I know couples who are very happy and they each observe to different degrees. This should be acceptable.

If the couple is incompatible religiously and incompatible in general a divorce should be sought. The get should not be withheld at all. The couple should strive for a custody agreement that is mutually agreeable. If they cannot agree, the secular courts should decide it. A Beis Din is not the place to decide custody matters when one parent is more religious than the other. It is inherently unfair. The couple better try their best to agree because the courts may decide to create a system that neither party likes.

These are some of my thoughts and ideas. I don’t imagine that they will solve all the problems. Nor do I imagine that any system is perfect. But I do believe that not tweaking the system will cause it to collapse. Albert Einstein said: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

We want different results. We want better results. Perhaps these suggestions can help just a bit.

I am open to any ideas you have. Remember we are trying to maintain the basic standards of the chasidic and charedi communities. Major overhauls are a non-starter.

Related posts:

  1. The NY Times Article on Sex Abuse in the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish Community
  2. Maimonides is Turning Over in His Grave
  3. Adam, Eve and the Lesson of Marriage

Tagged as: charedi, chasidic, divorce, love, marriage, religion

  • Ksil

    Interesting that you do not address the pre-dating age. To go form never talking to women, they are assur, sexual creatures, must be covered up, cant look at them, to instant fun and exciting conversation is not viable. In my view. Also, to expect some of these guys to wait 3 months before closing the deal is unrealistic. The main reason he is getting married is to do the deed and procreate, he may burst before three months is up. Also, birth control is assur. Only one with a specific heter for their particular situation can receive one.

    I remember asking my (ner israel trained rav) for a heter for BC…..i was 30, wife was 28,,,,,we had 5 kids…he said no. So i ignored him and never asked again.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      I don’t think social dating is the answer. Perhaps a more liberal attitude towards boys and girls at a Shabbos table or the kiddush in shul is in order.
      Birth control is less assur than it was when you asked. Things are changing.

    • Anonymous

      Ksil –
      I remember asking my (ner israel trained rav) for a heter for BC…..i was 30, wife was 28,,,,,we had 5 kids…he said no. So i ignored him and never asked again.

      What an a$$hole! You made the right choice (not asking again).

  • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

    “The get should not be withheld at all”.  Unless I’m missing something about withholding a get being encouraged by leaders or Rabbonim that statement seems a little strange.  Isn’t it generally a weapon (mis)used by a husband even iver the objection of the Rabbonim?  All the changes in the world won’t stop spiteful and angry men.  

    That being said I like your direction, and that small incremental steps, approved and encouraged by Chasidish/Charedi leaders is the only way.  The questions is do they recognize that there’s a problem.  

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      With the right amount of leverage, a get will be given.

      • Anonymous

        So why do the Rabbis/communities not apply the “right amount of leverage” in the cases of aguna that we hear about all the time?

  • Anonymous


    the conversations should include things like how excited one is about religion and if there are things that they question.

    This will never happen. NEVER! NEVER EVER. Why? Because if you are frank about religion/questions with someone that you may or may not eventually marry, and that may or may not harbor a grudge against you if things don’t work out, that person is very likely (almost certain, in fact) to mention such discussions to others.

  • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

    I was at a sheva brachos this week and was noticing that the chosson and kallah who both grew up in significantly more charedi families than I did were extremely comfortable around each other.  They were whispering, talking, joking among themselves.  They did not grow up socially with the other gender but still it was obvious that this young couple had the tools for a successful and happy life TOGETHER. 

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      They must have had an excellent engagement period!

    • Anonymous


      were extremely comfortable around each other.

      I don’t think this is so unusual. Most of my mothers large family is [very] Charedi and I often sensed that the new couples were comfortable with each other. Though I do have to admit, almost all my experience with these young couples is in the past, since our Charedi family doesn’t socialize with us (the MO part) anymore.

      • Leah

        Yup. I just saw my newly married cousins a few days after Sheva Brochos. This is a couple who dated five times and had a short engagement. They were totally cute and comfortable and happy together. Much increased comfort level from when I saw them two weeks pre-wedding. This is normal.

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          I’ll let you figure that out on your own…

          • Leah

            Lol. Oh I get it. I’m just saying it works out. 

  • MindY

    I think the way the chassidish and ultra orthodox batei dinim are run needs to change. The fact that the dayanim are paid by the hour by the litigants before them creates a corrupt environment before the first words of testimony. I also think that, at least in America, the batei dinim should restrict their oversight in divorce cases to the get only. It is when they get involved in the asset distribution and child custody that the real drama and bias begins.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Exactly.

      • David

        Rabbi Fink, can you clarify what you mean when you say “exactly”? Is it on the dayanim getting paid, the batei dinim not getting involved in asset distribution or both. And is this only in regards to “untra-orthodox” batei dinim, or MO Batei Dinim as well?

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          All batei din are under-qualified to deal with the complexities of child custody and asset distribution. For matter of halacha they should decide the law. For other matters they should not say anything at all.

          • David

            With all do respect Rabbi, I don’t understand why you think that the rabbi’s don’t understand the complexities of those situations. To clarify a bit: I am not saying that all Batei Dinim are qualified, but that some -  and I would put the Beit Din of America in that category – are qualified (and not under-qualified). From someone who has read many of the works of R’ Michael Broyde, I think he understands the exact complexities that you say Rabbi’s don’t understand. I believe I heard from R’ Broyde (although i don’t want to be quoted on it) that in cases with such complexities, Rabbi’s who are also lawyers are always on the beit din for that exact reason. If the Batei dinim were so out of touch, there arbitration’s wouldn’t hold up in secular court. Batei Dinim are given their legitimacy from the fact that their awards can be collected if brought in front of a secular court.

            • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

              The exception (R’ Broide) proves the rule. He is a rabbi and professor of law. He could probably be a secular judge. That is not the case with batei din.

          • David

            I think my second point – and i apologize if it wasn’t clear – was that in my opinion R’ Broyde would disagree with your characterization of Bateini Dinim & the Beit Din of America in particular. I think we (purposefully ambiguous) have to create a dichotomy that distinguishes between those batei dinim which have experts on such sensitive and often politicized topics and those who don’t. I think we both essentially agree on that. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you.

            • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

              Yes. I agree. This post is clearly about the Chasidic and Charedi communities. I limited it to their milieu. They do not respect Rabbi Broide at all.

  • Leah

    I’m a fan of two-month engagements. Anything longer than that for a yeshivish couple either results in the girl doubting her decision or the two of them not being able to keep their hands off each other. I have seen this time and time again.

    • tesyaa

       Better they wait a little longer and possibly violate negiah than end up in a bad marriage or have a future bad divorce or bitter custody battle.  Whether or not they can keep their hands off of each other in private should not figure into the equation.  2 months is a really short time.

      • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

        Disagree.  I believe violating negiyah that early will lead to a lifetime of lack of control during niddah (I do not believe that is conjecture).  Bad marriages happen for lot’s of reasons in short and long term dating/engagements.  I’m willing to bet there’s no correlation in fact.  

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          It is absolutely conjecture.

        • tesyaa

           I believe violating negiyah that early will lead to a lifetime of lack
          of control during niddah (I do not believe that is conjecture).

          At the risk of TMI, my personal experience is the exact opposite.

        • Anonymous

          the burack –
          violating negiyah that early will lead to a lifetime of lack of control during niddah

          “will lead”?!!!??? Since a large percentage of frum youngsters have violated negiyah, you’re basically saying that a large percentage of frum couples violate niddah. This is NOT a fact, you are wrong and need to rethink this issue.

          Hint: It is far easier to control oneself when having regular sexual activity (regular meaning a few weeks every month) than after a lifetime of no sexual activity at all, and 5 to 10 years of that after sexual maturity.

      • Leah

        What percentage of yeshivish couples ends up in a bad divorce or bitter custody battle? I’m saying what I would like, as a yeshivish woman. For the most part, the yeshivish couples I know have gotten engaged when they were happy with each other and liked each other and were excited about a future together. Why wait to get married? My primary reason for liking short engagements is more because I have been told and have seen that couples just end up getting nervous. Engagement is hard enough as it is. No reason to prolong it. Do what you need to do and start your life together.

        • Leah

          Note: This is not to say that I don’t think there are serious problems with the system. But too-short engagements is not one of them. And I don’t know which couples Rabbi Fink has witnessed, but from what I’ve seen, couples do have fun and enjoy each other’s company.

          • tesyaa

            I agree that  most young couples are infatuated with each other (which still doesn’t necessarily imply they’ll be able to make the long-term relationship work).   Although, for outsiders, it’s really hard to tell if they’re enjoying each other’s company or just enjoying the excitement of the wedding, the fun of playing dress-up in a custom wig, the attention, the gifts, etc.

          • Leah

            Of course it doesn’t necessarily imply anything, but facts on the ground are most of those couples are pretty happy with each other. And yes, a lot of girls are excited to be engaged, regardless of whom they’re engaged to. But still, it works out in the end.

  • tesyaa

    Perhaps a more liberal attitude towards boys and girls at a Shabbos table or the kiddush in shul is in order. 

    The degree of separation that exists now is completely out of control.  My daughters hesitate to go to the “men’s side” of the kiddush even just to let their father that they’re leaving.  And we’re not even in true chareidiville.

    • Josh

      Tzniut is innate for women & girls

      • tesyaa

        Eeeh,  it’s not that they believe “talking to boys” is wrong; it’s that certain people might make them feel uncomfortable, give them a dirty look, etc. or at least that’s what they’re afraid of. 

  • Josh

    Some assumptions you have made are inaccurate:
    Your definition of Chasidic dating is wrong. Couples can meet as many times as they want. In fact, it is well known that Ms. Reich dated her husband as many as 10 times before they married (in spite of her claims to the contrary). I wonder if you based this on what she said in the interview?There are numerous girls, even within the secular world, who get married before 19. I know some myself.If people find each other compatible from the outset, there are some serious tznius issues with dating simply for the sake of dating. So, to decide that a couple must date for a month and no fewer than 10 times is quite unnecessary.

    That the couple should meet the night before the wedding is out of place according to halacha. As a Rabbi I am surprised you even mention this option.

    With regard to family planning, children a precious gift from Hashem. Even when one hopes to receive a gift from a human being, lehavdil, it would be odd to say to the benefactor: “Presently, I am not interested in receiving your gift. When I will be ready to change my mind – I’ll let you know.” I was married for 5 years before we had children. When children are born, the woman changes alot and the dynamics are entirely different. It’s better to learn communication and love in a setting that will continue for the rest of your life, ie when children arrive.

    Your other ideas are very good. I strongly believe that neither spouse should be the spiritual advisor. But I do believe that both husband and wife should have a spiritual role model of their own with whom they discuss their yiddishkeit, this is paramount as when one is slipping, one often needs a hand to be helped up.

    • Anonymous

      Josh –
      That the couple should meet the night before the wedding is out of place according to halacha.

      I don’t think the post says that. Read that part again, it says that the couple should discuss intimacy at least once before the wedding night.

      • Josh

        Correct, I misquoted, but my point is the same. The words ‘discuss intimacy’ are very vague. When was the last time you sat down with your wife to ‘discuss intimacy’? not your average discussion for the married couple, all the more so for two people who have never been intimate before.

        The focus should be on ensuring both were educated by qualified teachers who stress the meotional and physical needs, not only the halachah.

  • tesyaa

    But still, it works out in the end.

    I agree, except when it doesn’t.

    • Leah

      Nothing is fool-proof. Everyone should go out for as long as they need and without being pushed into anything. That is going to be different for every couple.

  • Tellthetruth

    hi my name is chaya nechama and I’m askanazie. I like your comments a lot. I’m just wondering how much education men from these Chasidic groups get in general in how to treat a wife. I’ve seen several cases now where the men treat their wives really badly, mostly just by disregarding her, and using her almost like a servant but not showing her that he finds her delightful. I’ve seen this be terribly painful for a woman to not see her goodness in his eyes, to not feel that he likes her all that much. It’s terribly lonely and feels like a rejection. Women need to feel loved and we are willing to do all the other things, the laundry, the dishes, the endless chores, the food that miraculously appears in front of you at a Seuda… the cleaning for Pesach, caring lovingly for the children…. I love doing all those things IF I am loved. If Im not loved, all I can think is what am I doing this for?
    My friend is now intertaining the idea of divorce and she’s talked to me a lot about the reasons which essentially come down to this: she says, “I just don’t think he likes me all that much.” She works so hard, she tries to be a good person, and I love her, but she’s lonely in her marriage. And I just think it’s such a waste. I’m not trying to generalize, and maybe it’s that some guys don’t think this is important. Her husband treats her like she’s not all that important to him. There should be some way for women dating to be able to determine if the guy will be able to provide the emotional connection that all women crave and need. Women need to be found delightful to their husbands just like children need to feel that they delight their parents. Huge emotional scars that never heal happen when they don’t get this.  I hope its ok that I wrote this, I don’t mean to offend anyone, but it seems like such an obvious thing and so easy to give and yet so hard for some people. And getting into a marriage with such a person would almost definitely end either in divorce or a scarred for life woman and children…

  • Leah

    I don’t go for all the numbers you provided because every couple and situation is different. My general guidelines would be as follows:

    1. Don’t start dating until you’re ready.
    2. Don’t get engaged until you’re ready.
    3. Don’t get engaged to anyone you don’t like.

    Seems obvious but there is SO much pressure and hysteria out there. Parents and rebbeim should not be pushing their charges into anything.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      People are not able to think on their own. They need baselines. I agree with you but I think my numbers are a good start.

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