In Defense of Kiddush Clubs

by rabbifink on August 9, 2011 · 33 comments

Typical Kiddush Club Fare

Kiddush Club: (noun) a slang term applied wherever an informal group of people leave a synagogue’s sanctuary during Jewish services on Shabbat (Saturday) morning to congregate, make kiddush (frequently over liquor) and socialize. Participants often leave services during the Haftorah reading or the sermon. – Wikipedia

Rabbi Shmuley Yanklowitz has a scathing indictment of kiddush clubs in The Jewish Week. The Orthodox Union has banned kiddush clubs from their shuls as well.

Citing “some studies” that indicate alcoholism as high as 10-15% for Jews in general, Rabbi Shmuley argues that kiddush clubs are a destructive force in our synagogues. It seems that in Rabbi Shmuley’s kiddush clubs, men stagger back into shul completely drunk. It seems to Rabbi Shmuley that Jewish teens abuse alcohol because of kiddush clubs. His writing describes the kiddush clubs as being “exclusive groups” in “back rooms” reminiscent of the back rooms in a Las Vegas casino or illegal high stakes poker game.

I have been to many kiddush clubs in many shuls. None fits the description of Rabbi Shmuley. None.

There is no place for drunkenness in shul. It is prohibited to pray while inebriated. Men who get drunk during kiddush club have serious problems that can’t and won’t be solved by writing scathing diatribes against kiddush club or even by banning them.

I have previously written about the problem of insular communities denying internal problems. I agree that alcohol abuse may be one of those issues. (See: Social Issues Raised by the Recent Tragedy)

But, I disagree that kiddush clubs must be discouraged or banned.

Going to shul on Shabbos is a religious and social experience. Many people enjoy the social aspects of communal prayer. I believe that this element of prayer within Judaism was a stroke of genius by the rabbis of the Talmud. Making a religious experience such as prayer intertwined with a social experience is a great way to balance two basic human needs.

Shabbos services are quite long. I don’t think they need to be shorter nor do I think anyone should feel bound to stay inside the sanctuary for the duration of the services. Further, most men come to shul not having eaten breakfast as per the halachic requirement that one not eat before morning services.

A kiddush club is just a more organized way of taking a few minute break from shul. I don’t think there is anything terribly wrong about that. Like anything, the kiddush club can’t cancel out the religious experience of attending shul. But to say that it automatically turns one’s Jewish education into a waste of money is unfair and unwarranted.

On the contrary, if a kiddush club gives people some extra motivation to come to shul, it is a classic example of “מתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה” – the Talmudic concept of using ulterior motives to do the right thing. Similarly, if a shot of whiskey and some herring helps one enjoy the services a bit more, it is hard to see why it should be banned. When one is basically fasting until midday, a kiddush club can be a great pick-me-up during the long Shabbos services.

The kiddush clubs that I have participate in, were friendly, quick and pretty harmless overall. There is no reason all kiddush clubs can’t be the same as those. There may be a few horrible kiddush clubs, but if there are, the people who make them horrible are the problem, not the clubs themselves.

In short, in my experience, kiddush clubs are not as seedy or nefarious as Rabbi Shmuley alleges. Some clubs may be as bad as he claims. Even in those cases, it seems to me that the problem is the participants are their drinking problems as a whole, not the actual club. Teens may wish to experiment with alcohol. I know I did. Parents and community members need to be responsible for the teens in their lives. Eliminating kiddush clubs won’t translate into teens not being enticed by alcohol. Making the claim, based on “some (unnamed) studies” that Jewish alcoholism is at 10-15% has no relationship to kiddush clubs. A tiny percentage of Jews go to shul; an even smaller percentage participate in kiddush clubs. It is hard enough to see correlation, let alone causation.

Shul needs to be more fun, more engaging, more social, if a kiddush club contributes to these goals I can’t see why they should be completely shunned. People always need to be responsible about what they do. A hallmark of the non-Charedi world is the willingness to let people make their own choices and give them the tools to make those choices. Not to limit those choices with bans and polemics.

There are some actual benefits to the typical kiddush club. In my opinion, if they are done right they are worth keeping around.

Link: The Jewish Week

Related posts:

  1. Does Your Kiddush Have Kugel?
  2. [Colloquial] Kiddush Hashem in Japan
  3. Boy Can I Relate To This

Tagged as: alcohol, kiddush, kiddush club, Rabbi Shmuley, shul

  • Mike Miller

    Ok, so what about moving the kiddush to between shacharis and mussaf, then? Or just provide a 15 minute intermission; let people walk around, shmooze, snack, learn a bit, whatever.

    I’m not a fan of those who say that kiddush clubs promote alcoholism (though I do have to question if the focus on quality booze is really any better than the much decried focus on chullent), but I can’t really support any idea that the proper behavior (or even “a proper behavior”) should involve skipping either haftora, the Rabbi’s speech (although the Rabbi himself may have a different view) or both.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rlsentell Lee Sentell

    Haven’t had a chance to read the source article just yet (tomorrow, hopefully), but I have to say that I can’t go along with the kiddush club.

    I remember the kiddush club at the shul I attended for many years. Firstly, the participants tended to be quite disruptive, especially after imbibing. They didn’t make a ruckus or anything, of course, but drunk congregants talk, and talk, and talk some more. Secondly, it was obvious that some of these participants were flat-out drunk. Maybe not frat-party drunk, but not sober enough to drive – and certainly not to offer a proper prayer. I think the word they use today is “buzzed”. Lastly, it was an obvious influence on the younger attendees. Inevitably a few of the tween set would try to casually sidle up (or get profferred by one of the participants) in order to ”chap a schnapp” under the auspices of “becoming a man” or whatever they say in justification when they give kids a taste of alcohol.

    I’ll give you – I doubt kiddush clubs are a primary cause of alcoholism or anything like that. But there’s things that belong in a shul and things that don’t, particularly during a prayer service. I think it’s even more egregious to call it a kiddush club, as if it has some sort of religious connotation. It should really be called the “I am super-bored by the service and I want to knock around club” or maybe the ”I need an excuse to have a shot at 10:30 AM club”.

    Think of it this way: if your shul had a cigar club, and they would leave during the service to smoke cigars, and children would occasionally wander in and have a puff, how would you feel about that?

  • Anonymous

    My opinion – kiddush clubs should not take place during davening. Not because of any religious rule, but because it makes a lot more sense having them after davening to eliminate time limits (for example when a scintillating conversation begins) and to allow the folks to recover while walking home afterward (Mussaf shouldn’t be the recovery period!). And alcohol absorbs much better with some food in the belly. Drinking a shot or two on a completely empty stomach isn’t recommended.

    There is no way kiddush clubs cause alcoholism, and anyone giving teens alcohol (at a kiddush club or elsewhere) is breaking the law. But teens seem to always find a way to acquire alcohol – especially when we make it something forbidden. I think the French and Italians have a better idea. They serve alcohol (usually wine and/or beer) at meals even to youngsters, and thus, for the most part, alcohol doesn’t have the “allure of the forbidden” for the teens in those countries (though lately some teens there ape the drunkenness portrayed in many films from the USA). Claiming any sort of causation of kiddush clubs to alcoholism is asinine.

    In my shul/minyan, we have kiddush after davening every shabbat of the year. Most guys will have a drink or two, but every so often we get someone that goes overboard. A few years ago, we had one person that had to be banned (from alcohol) because he clearly couldn’t handle it properly. We also have one person who needs to have his intake limited and we are sure to do so. Obviously the scotch is stored under lock and key (more securely than the sifrei Torah we joke). In addition, some of the guys have an additional kiddush club at their homes on a rotating basis. Finally there are a few, very few, guys that skip out during the haftorah for a quick shot. I’ve never done that for two reasons, first of all, it’s only 20-30 minutes until kiddush anyway, and second of all, it’s only 8:40 in the morning at that point!

    Finally, shul should never go till midday. That’s insane (people will be hungry and bored – which totally destroys kavana for many). Two hours is more than sufficient, so if you start at the latest at 9 (we’re not talking about Chassidim that sometimes start at 10 or later) then you ought to be done at 11, or on weeks with certain additions by 11:20. In my minyan, we start at 7:25 and finish at 9 or 9:15, and that includes a drasha between 7 and 10 minutes.

    To summarize, davening should be shorter and kiddush should be right after davening.

    • http://www.facebook.com/azigraber Azi Graber

      I think there is usually food too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/azigraber Azi Graber

    I’m not for or against these “clubs” and I usually just roll my eyes when I read about rabbis or groups of rabbis acting as through they have the right to remove what remaining autonomy there is left. It’s like an out of control congress passing laws right and left, though when the rabbis do it, its pathetic, since they’re usually yelling at the wind.

    Where I go, there is a one man club. It’s one guy who heads back sometime during krias hatorah. Anyway, about two weeks ago, he’s in the kitchen and they reached the end of the kriah, and I heard him, from the kitchen, yell out “yakum Purkan min shmaya.” He was trying to speed things up. Thought that was kind of funny.

    Re the social factor, orthodox Jews aren’t meant to have social lives. If you went to a RW yeshiva, pretty much your whole teenage life, from morning to late at night,  you’re locked in the building. By the time you get out, you just want to go home already. Places and activities are banned. They’re trying to bring a little of that to shuls I guess.

  • http://profiles.google.com/apikoris.conservative Conservative Apikoris

    “There is no place for drunkenness in shul. It is prohibited to pray while inebriated.”

    What’s your definition of “drunkenness” and “inebriated?”   A blood alcohol concentration of 0.08?  0.1?  Most fully grown men can toss back a drink, or even two, and remain perfectly within those limits, if a little “buzzed.”

    Whether this sort of activity is disruptive or not depends on the floorplan of the shul, I would think.  At my shul, I am a “member” of a de-facto kiddush club, except that we have no booze.  In fact, “B’nai CA” is run by a bunch of Jewish Baptists, we only serve grape juice at the real kiddush.  It’s not an official policy, but if a kiddish sponsor brings wine instead of grape juice, the nasty looks they get….

    However, there may be something to be said to hold off on the schnapps until after the services.  One reasonable setup I saw was at a Conservative synagogue in San Antonio Texas, where they had a table with the schnapps and herring on the way out after services.  They also served lunch, which reduced the risk of drunk people (or rather people with a BAC over 0.08) driving home.  (Remember this is a Conservative shul in the suburbs.)

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      If one drinks more than a r’viis (between 3-5 oz.) of wine AND one can’t stand straight / slurs their words, it is prohibited to pray.

      • http://profiles.google.com/apikoris.conservative Conservative Apikoris

        OK, so 5 oz. of wine is the equivalent of a 1,5 oz shot of 8 proof spirits. 

        So one drink is a freebie, even if it gives you a buzz.  Beyond that you can drink as much as you want as long as you don’t show your drunkenness?  How about if you tend to slouch and not speak clearly, even when you’re stone cold sober?

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          It’s not a matter of “showing” it’s a matter of “being”. Even if you can drive while drunk, you are not allowed to. Same here.
          If you are never coherent, well then you have other problems… :)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_53RYPJ6CBZNWBESGHUAW2AY3XA bibi

    I agree with the author I am a member of a kiddish club I walk 2 miles plus to get to shul and I am there an hour before dovening sometimes in some very adverse conditions usually very hot  seeing as I m fasting by the time we end laining I am starving our Rabbi  has decided to allow us the chance to go out and have a kiddish club so others who are hungry can have a bissel to eat we are fast quiet non disruptive and usally back within 5-8 mins we have gone and learnedthe correct halacha so everyone knows what to do IE kiddish on grape juice a bissel of food mazzonots and if you need the shot shehakol but we do it for the food not the alcohol but I would find it very hard to concentrate through mussaf with out it

  • Alan Friedenberg

    “Shabbos services are quite long.”  No offense, but that’s a stupid excuse.  Shabbat services are long in America because the congregations let them go.  My minyan in Israel takes 90 minutes, give or take  a few.  Even the main minyan only takes just over two hours.  If the gabbaim would stop reciting 7minute”mi shebayrachs” for each aliyah, and the rebbeim would stop giving 30 minute drashot, then services would be a reasonable amount of time.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      It’s not an excuse. It’s a fact. I prefer a slower davening. No rush, take your take, but if you need a break, take one.

      • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

        it is true many yeshiva davenings take their time with davening, including long pseukei d’zimrah and karbanos and still take 2 hours, while Young Israel’s rush through davening and the whole “show” takes three hours.  Young Israel style Rabbis love the theater of it.

        • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

          As a congregant, I liked the theater of it as well.

  • http://profiles.google.com/holyhyrax Holy Hyrax

    Can you imagine the cohanim taking a break at the Temple for a kiddush club?

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      I can imagine anything. I have a great imagination. (Problem with your “logic” is that it is prohibited for the priests to have any alcohol in their system while working in the Temple.)

      • http://profiles.google.com/holyhyrax Holy Hyrax

        You know what I mean. I think its a manner of respect and some level of kedusha. The Cohanim represent the people as they approach God. We don’t have that anymore. Instead, it is us that approach God. It is that one day a week where we are not in a rush to get to work. It’s a day meant for some sort of sanctity. You are approaching God in prayer, and then leave right in the middle to have a drink and talk about something that can wait till later??? I think it minimizes of what the shul is for FIRST, which is a place of worship. Socializing is important, but there is a time, place and proper way to do it while at the same time mainting the proper kavod for God and the occasion

        • Anonymous

          If you feel that way, then don’t do it You are entitled to your opinion.. But, don’t tell me what I should or should not do.

          • http://profiles.google.com/holyhyrax Holy Hyrax

            Don’t get your pantyhose knotted up skirsch. 

            I AM giving my opinion. And yes, sometimes opinions deal with what people ought to be doing. I’m not telling YOU what to do, I am giving my opinion on the matter.

            • Anonymous

              My pantyhose knotted up? I can tell just by that that you are at best immature, at worst someone who has no manners or civility. Have a great life.

  • Binyomin Medetsky

    Eliyahu, I absolutely cannot wait for next week’s topic. I can just picutre you trying to come up with it now.
    “Hmmm, what really hot controversial topic that NO ONE seemingly sides with, can i possibly figure out a far-fetched excuse based on my own version of pure logic to argue on behalf of, and pretend as if I support, just to stir some nice controversial conversation and debate and rile up some discussion on my blog for???” 
    A Rabbi being pro Kiddush Club??? That’s great cause for some nice discussion. It’s like having our very own Jewish Shock Jock! I’d love to see what happens when all your congregants get up and walk out during your speech to joke and shmooze and drink!
    You’re right that the whole thing about drunkenness is a little far fetched, but it’s just funny how you feel the need to go to the other extreme and SUPPORT it, just to show your disagreement with the article!  :)

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      I have always been pro-kiddush club. This is nothing new.

  • http://twitter.com/theburack theburack

    I used to think Kiddush clubs was no big deal- thought the rabbis over blew it, or were offended people were leaving during their drashas.  But now that I’m a little older and see it around me, it is a problem.  Leaving aside alcoholism as a diseases since I have no knowledge of the correlation, just it’s affect on the day is terrible.  In our shul after davening we have a dry kiddush.  Going around the room talking to people I see numerous people who are clearly drunk- not necessarily sloppy, but  I wouldn’t get in a car with them.  Then many go to each others house after shul before lunch for a kiddush.  This isn’t once in a while – this is every week.  So how is their davening?  You expect mussaf to be quiet if let’s say 1/20th of the shul had a few shots.  And even more so – what is the effect on these guys’ wives and children.  What happens to their shabbos? The one time the family is together for many families each week.   I’m not saying it’s terrible for guys to make a l’chaim and have a shot or two, but there is something with alcohol that pushes many to excess, and I think you are understating it.  

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      Again, the problem is the people, not the clubs.

  • http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

    Why not have a kiddush club with grape juice. would seem to address all the social needs you bring up, while eliminating the alcohol concerns.

  • Anonymous

    First let me say, Rabbi Fink, you are right on the mark and it is about time someone said this. A minor correction is in order, however. It was not The Jewish Week that Rabbi Shmuley’s diatribe appeared in but The Jewish Press.
    I would also like to add a few thoughts. There are people who go to Kiddush Clubs and people who do not. I respect the views of those who refrain from going but these holier than thou people need to (1) learn to live and let live and (2) realize that they themselves are not perfectparagons of religious life because they do not participate in Kiddush Clubs. I recall an incident when I once came into shul and asked someone how the Yankees had fared the previous night.One of these holier than thou individuals wh had overheard me, began berating me for bringing this unholy subject into shul. About 20 minutes later, this same individual was discussing the stock market with one of his friends.
    Finally, a word of advice to Rabbi Shmuley. I noticed that the Jewish Press stated he was a  “fifth year doctoral candidate”. Get a life and finish your degree, Rabbi. Five years is too much time for this. But, maybe you are too busy worrying what other terrible things you can blame on Kiddush Clubs. Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb stated that Kiddush Clubs lead to Loshon Hora. He fails to realize that people speak loshon hora and would do so  with or without Kiddush Club participation. Rabbis need to emphasize the positive aspects of Judaism, instead of constantly telling us what not to do. It is their negativism that has turned Jews away from religion and certainly not Kiddush Clubs.

    • http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

      (It first appeared in the Jewish Week. Now it has also appeared in the Jewish Press.)

      Thanks for commenting!

    • Anonymous

      If someone witnessed a mugging should they turn away because we must live and let live.  I am sure you have voiced your opinion about things you believe people should not be doing (religious or not).  Your issue is that they are attacking something obviously dear to you.  Go drink at a kiddush club nobody is going to lock you in shul but realize it is not the proper thing.

      • Anonymous

        Going to a Kiddush Club is hardly akin to a mugging. And, I DON’T think it is wrong. That is exactly the point I wanted to make – that some of us feel that what we are doing is not wrong whether others agree or not. And, it is not just drinking that draws us. Our Kiddush club is about Achduth, mainly – and about commemorating a Yahrzeit or other such event. And, yes. We do like to savor a fine single malt – at least I do. But not all of our members drink. Some are there just to socialize. That is why I asked that others “live and let live.” What we who go to Kiddush Clubs do is between us and the Rebono Shel Olom and is not anyone else’s business. And that goes for what you do as well. I would certainly not try to encourage anyone who did not wish to partake to come and join us. But when I have observed the people who are vehemently against Kiddush Clubs I have usually found that they engage in activities that I would be appalled at. So I would suggest that you simply Choosetoswim or Nottoswim and let me do the same. Have a Good Shabbos.

        • http://profiles.google.com/holyhyrax Holy Hyrax

          You seem to be taking this awfully personal. This is a blog. The rabbi wrote a post. Nobody is actively forcing upon you anything. We are stating our opinions (as you are). Our opinions differ from yours. We are against them for reasons XYZ, irrelevant if this is between you and God. Many things are between you and God. Does that mean opinions can’t be stated? I will go even further and state Judaism is all about matters between us and God, yet it still finds itself regulating behavior. I find kiddush clubs at shul to be something that reduces the sanctity of the place….which comes before your ideals to socialize. In the end, nobody is sticking a gun to your head.

          • Anonymous

            It is definitely not personal. I am only responding to those that want Kiddush Clubs banned.These people do not realize that such an action would only be divisive. Let me reiterate: I respect the opinions of those people who feel Kiddush Clubs are wrong.I differ from them. That’sall.

  • Anonymous

     Thanks for having the courage to take a positive position concerning Kiddush Clubs.

    Instead of concentrating on more serious matters such as intermarriage or outreach, the rabbis attack the Kiddish Club because it is an easy target.

    We have consistently about 50 Kiddush Club members who, because of the Kiddish, make a special effort to come to shul every week – no matter the weather.  Even the chazan is known to join the Club at its weekly meeting.

  • http://profiles.google.com/holyhyrax Holy Hyrax

    >My pantyhose knotted up? I can tell just by that that you are at best immature, at worst someone who has no manners or civility. Have a great life.
    I am just replying to a rather silly comment you made. OBVIOUSLY, I was only giving an opinion. It’s not like I can force anything upon you. This IS just a blog you know. 

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