Agudath Israel Misses the Boat on Magen Tzedek

by rabbifink on May 4, 2011 · 222 comments

A few of the “news for Jews” blogs posted a statement from Agudath Israel regarding Magen Tzedek.

See: Agudath Israel statement on “Magen Tzedek”. Of course Agudath Israel can’t post it on their own website because they don’t have one since the Internet is prohibited. Nonetheless they managed to leak the statement to the sinners who have blogs and news sites so that pretty much every single orthodox Jew will see the statement on the Internet. Ahhhh, the games we play…

Anyway, the statement makes a gross misrepresentation of Magen Tzedek, misunderstands its purpose, injects non-existent agendas into an otherwise somewhat worthy cause and as per usual, weakens the clout with which orthodox Jewish leaders have in the lives of orthodox Jews.

The statement makes the claim that Magen Tzedek seeks to redefine Kashrut and by implication, do away with the orthodox hechsher system. The effort is called a brazen one and its purpose is to undermine the religious tradition. The statement tells us to “regard the new seal for what it is, a falsification of the Jewish religious heritage, and treat it accordingly.”

I am embarrassed for them.

Hechsher Tzedek is not what Agudath Israel thinks it is. As I wrote way back when it was announced in December (See: Kosher Supervision and Ethics Supervision) the seal is supposed to run ALONGSIDE traditional hechsher symbols. The traditional symbol vouches for the kashrus of the food per halacha and the Hechsher Tzedek symbol vouches for the ethical concerns in mass food production.

It is NOT an attempt to undermine the mesorah. It is NOT a redefinition of kashrut and quite frankly, seems necessary in many instances to augment the failing oversight of the government in food production practices.

It has been argued that the new symbol would perhaps cause an unwitting kosher consumer to trust the hechsher Tzedek for the halachic kashrus and cause them to sin by eating food that is not in fact kosher, rather is ethically produced. In my opinion this is a ridiculous concern. No responsible kosher eating consumer buys food if there is a random kosher symbol printed on the label. All kosher consumers know that they need to vet any and all kosher symbils before relying on them. Hechsher Tzedek would be no different. There are already plenty of kosher symbols that are not relied upon by huge swaths of the Jewish community. I see no reason to be fearful that this particular symbol will cause sin.

I believe this statement was a mistake. The greater Jewish community would benefit from a Hechsher Tzedek alongside traditional kosher supervision. Agudath Israel is needlessly poking its head into a non-issue. By doing so they lose credibility and cause anguish and animosity among Jews for no reason. (And wouldn’t it be nice if Agudath Israel spoke with such gusto against sex abusers and orthodox Jewish criminals…?)

I hope Agudath Israel rethinks this statement.

Tagged as: Agudath Israel, Hechsher Tzedek, kashrus, Kosher, Magen Tzedek

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

“….Nonetheless they managed to leak the statement to the sinners who have blogs and news sites……”

They OWN the blogs and news sites you’re referring to.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Define “own”…

Anonymous

Control?

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

yup, control;

as in Jews own the media: Jews control the media

Anonymous

Your a hypocrite. You warn me about name calling and then do it yourself. It is really OK though, once we are back to name calling I will be childish too. Sticks and stones will . . .

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Wha???

Anonymous

Troll?

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

—–Original message—–

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

are you talking to me?

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

I love the concept of Magen Tzedek. But of course, Torah true jews are against it because they think the rules of and concerns for this world don’t exist for them.

Anonymous

Even those rules that are encoded in Choshen Mishpat?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

To be fair, many of the Hechsher Tzedek guidelines are not in Chosen Mishpat…

Anonymous

I know. My comment was referring to ” rules of [and concerns for] this world”.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

No, I am referring to what Larry David calls the unwritten rules, like you don’t cut on line, you don’t take more than one or two of something that’s free. etc…. (when someone tells you they’re sick, you respond, “uhh.”)

Those include things that health and world conscious people pay attention to, while Jews don’t.

MarkSoFla, you dont live in NY, and Rabbi Fink, you’ve lived out of NY for so long, you’ve forgotten how rude and obnoxious the average NY jew is.

Anonymous

I lived more than half my life in NYC and I can just barely remember. I suppose it’s gotten worse? Sad.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

Dont you witness the annual migration of NY jews to south florida? I know you’re much more north then where the average jew vacates to, but you must come into some contact with them.

anyway, im not here to attack jews, i just wanted to say that it seemed obvious to me that the agudah would not like this.

Anonymous

but you must come into some contact with them.

Contact??? Ha. Half of them are my relatives!

Some of them didn’t leave until the day before yesterday.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

oh god, the ones that stay so long past the end of the holiday are the WORST!!

Anonymous

BTW, I know for a fact that Daniopp particularly loves the influx of NY visitors to Miami a few times a year
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

uch….

if its tourist season, why cant we hunt them….

Anonymous

You seem to be condemning Jews who live in NY for being NY’ers. Anywhere you go in MetroNY you will run into rude obnoxious NYers. I’m guessing the rude cabbies are just Jews dressed up. As a NYer myself, I have met this type from across the spectrum. It is not only the Jews, its the NY in them.

I find it interesting that Jews as a whole are condemned on this blog for acting how they see fit in their eyes. I doubt any of would you take issue with an offensive act or condemnation from any minority in the USA, or even the average white. Antisemitism probably doesn’t exist, it is a conspiracy created by the Jews. Take a reality check, Jews are no different than their non-Jewish counterpart. Your issue is that they do not see things like you or act how you see fit. If you would see a kid raised in a gang rob a store, you would not blame him, it was the way he was raised. Don’t be so quick to throw everyone under the bus, I know many Jewish NYers who take the time to hold the door open behind them and won’t cut the line. It is their surroundings, the same way our surroundings effect every one of us.

Daniopp

You assume too much about the commenters on this blog. I am an orthodox jewish trial lawyer living in a red state, registered republican, dyed in the wool conservative, gun owner. I’m as far from a liberal tree hugger as u can get.

My opinion of ny Jews is based on decades of exposure to them coming to my home town and showing me why most of the world hates us Jews. They give us a bad name. Of course there are some good natured ny Jews, they have all moved out of ny and are living in warm weather climates now (see Fink, though he’s still a bills fan and that is troubling, or my wife, who is still a Yankees/giants fan – at least she isn’t a mets/jets fan).

As far as acting as they see fit, acting like an ass and making people hate Jews as a direct result is not ok.

If a kid robbed a store I would blame him. If he shot someone while doing so and killed them, he would get the death penalty in my eyes. (felony murder, though I know some ppl on this blog don’t like the idea of felony murder…)

Don’t make assumptions, when you do you make an ass out of umptions…

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

What he said, plus my own story.

1) I saw an old clipping of a European paper claiming that the Hassidic guests of some hotel in a spa town had to be moved to the back cottages since they were loud, and annoying everyone.

2) Jews who get up in the aisle of an airplane and stand in front of the bathroom door to pray.

3) I overhead a cashier in a catskills store, (many years ago, as i havent been there in a decade) seeing me and my friends enter during the month of April, “…I cant believe they’ll be back soon.”

That isnt plain antisemitism, many of these jews are rude, they way they treat and speak to non jews.

How people refer to their house help as ‘shiksa’ implying that she isnt worth being referred to by her name or simply “her.”

There is just a general sense that the rules of society dont apply to them, and its all from a false sense of superiority.
because ‘a’ they arent, and ‘b’ even if they were that is no excuse for the way they disregard others in public spaces .

I am a leasing manager for a real estate co. that owns abt 2000 apts in ny. I deal with non jews and jews. THE ONLY TIMES I AM EVER ASKED TO DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL IS BY JEWS, scamming section 8, or whatnot.

I rarely ever here from a gentiles that their salary is larger than what their W2 shows, they make more off the books. PRACTICALLY every jew (only the Charedi ones) almost as a rule, can never even give me a W2, at all.

I love Jews, I am a Jew, I am not embarrassed by Jew, but I have a right to be critical of anyone who created a bad name for Jews with something that could have been prevented by them. Like my mother who every single Hannuka bought the women who help clean, presents. And gave them paid vacation, and when her children were young would have them eat dinner at the table with us.

Anonymous

So you had a proper upbringing and are better than them. Very nice. I have a strong feeling you believe you are better than the Jews you criticize. You have a right to be critical, but don’t be stereotypical. It’s not everyone and it is not the majority either. And like I said before non-jews act the same, they just aren’t held to the same standards.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

I can understand the statement, the placement of this “symbol” alongside an already existing hechsher gives the distinct implication that the hechsher is NOT ethical. or a kosher product that does not have this “symbol” alongside it is an unethical organization.

also i think they (HZ) could have avoided sopme controversy by NOT making their symbol look like a kashrus symbol…

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

You can understand the Statement? Like the parts that imply that they
are vindictively undermining the mesorah?!

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

maybe i wasnt so clear in the initial comment. I can understand having to make the statement. for the reasons listed the HZ can be construed in a way that kicks mud in the eye of the orthodox kashrus establishment.

personally, i think the HZ is stupid. My grandfather, who received ordination from JTS from Lieberman thinks its dangerous. he says this is how it starts in the conservative movement. attached to a legit main item (HZ only appearing next to kashrus symbol) but slowly moves away and becomes the main item itself. Soon having JUST the HZ will be what makes a product kosher. I’m inclined to trust him as his 91 years on this earth (SHLIT”A) has afforded him a perspective i can only hope to attain.

As such, he is on the side of the agudah (as he was with the Maharat/Rabbah controversy). I never thought he would EVER be on the same page as the Agudah but he knows from whence he speaks and knows what potential pitfalls lie ahead. he has bemoaned the fact the the conservative movement has shifted more and more to the left and will eventually become indiscernible from reform judaism. and this, he says, it how it begins….

Anonymous

Soon having JUST the HZ will be what makes a product kosher.

For most Conservative Jews, having no symbol at all, but having no suspect ingredients is sufficient. So this can hardly exacerbate the problem very much.

And your grandfather is right, but Aguda isn’t going to save Conservative Jewry from itself by using such statements. In general, the middle is splitting and part shifting leftward and part shifting rightward. Perhaps in 2 generations, the vast majority of what was CJ will resemble RJ, with a small minority resembling LWMO.

A similar shift to the left and to the right is occurring within MO.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

it will exacerbate the problem. many in the middle want to move to the right and want to try and keep at least kashrus and shabbos (inside or outside the home to start). my experience within the conservative community and those that want to become more observant is that kosher shopping can be confusing. this will only add to the confusion and will confuse the ultimate issue of what a kosher product really is…

you dont have to agree, thats fine, but i really do see this as a metzius issue and my experience has shown me that this can be problematic. and recent developments of “new ideas” within both conservative and “orthodox” judaism need to be met with EXTREMELY sharp language to make the stance on the topic clear as day. (see the pathetic excuse for a statement initially issued by the RCA re:maharat then rabbah, etc.)

Anonymous

Assuming you are right about this problem, and you might be, the approach taken by Aguda is so wrongheaded and does NOTHING to solve the problem because they will not stop the Conservative folks from putting their label on products.

A much better solution would have been for the Orthodox establishment to JOIN the Conservative folks in backing some sort of label regarding ethics. Heck, with all the wrangling that went on within the CJ movement to decide what the criteria should be, OJ Rabbis would have felt right at home! In the end, the OJ kashrut establishment, with their vast contacts in the food industry, would likely have dominated both the discussion and the standard setting for ethics.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

point 1: you may be right here, but it sends a message to the orthodox community and given where it appeared (where there is pretty much zero conservative jews reading) i think the messages intended target was the orthodox community and the kashrus orgs to try and put a stop to HZ appearing alongside. just my assumption, admittedly.

point 2: NO. totally disagree. Kashrus is just that, its NOT an ethical standard. its a kosher standard. and its should remain just that. we dont water down or change what that means. that is the fear of what i said above. vechol hamosif, goreah. i firmly and strongly believe in this. while ethics and honesty are things i hold dear (as a jew, and officer of the court) the truth is kashrus orgs should not involve themselves in this arena, thats what laws are for.

Anonymous

NO. totally disagree. Kashrus is just that, its NOT an ethical standard. its a kosher standard.

I agree that this is how it should be. That’s why any ethical standard labeling should be separate. By the way, I tend to agree with you that business ethics ought to be left to the law and that these liberal feel-good oneupmanship labels are pretty useless for me.

But if you so vehemently agree with this fact, why wouldn’t you support giving kashrut certification to the food at a strip club? And that’s just the extreme case. In Israel, Rabbanut (and others) won’t grant kashrut certificates for all sorts of reasons. That often causes non-orthodox people making simchot to forgo kashrut certification, not because they don’t want to have it (they do for certain family members), but rather because the ancillary rules are just too onerous for them to comply with.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

OK ill deal with the second item first: giving a hechsher to an establishment is different than to a produced product. in the case of a strip club (i think i mentioned that on twitter during a recent discussion on this issue) telling someone the food is kosher and the establishment receives a hechsher allows a patron to eat there, while also being over other issurim. thats what i have a bit of a problem with. If a strip club sells entenmans donuts or empire turkey sandwiches i have no problem with the OU for giving those products a hechsher even though they are being sold in a strip club. (also an issue for the mashgiach temidi to be hanging out all day in a strip club since i dont think the yotzei ve nichnas would be sufficient there.)

ok first issue. like i said before, the entire issue would be rendered moot if the HZ didnt have a symbol that resembled, or so closely was made to look like, a symbol of kashrus. Also their own claim that this is Kashrus for the 21st century is misleading at best. if they just had a symbol for example that said ethical in a circle, i would have less of a problem, still have an issue with the implications it makes but less so…

Anonymous

the establishment receives a hechsher allows a patron to eat there, while also being over other issurim. thats what i have a bit of a problem with.

So you agree that a wedding hall (or other venue) that permits mixed dancing should be denied a kashrut certificate (for example, Glatt Yacht).

Or a restaurant that has belly dancers (for example, a Moroccan or similar restaurant) for entertainment.

Or a hotel that has all/most their mechalel Shabbos activities open throughout Shabbat? (most Israeli hotels).

My point is that some issurim are apparently considered acceptable in places that have kashrut certificates, so it isn’t as cut and dried as we would like it to be. Is issurim regarding business ethics one of those? How many establishments have had their kashrut certificates revoked due to shmei-drei business-wise, or employee-wise?
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

maybe on the moroccan place i would say yes. not on the others.

addressing last line: they shouldnt, they law should take care of that…

BayshanimRachmanim

“What exactly do you have an issue with? ”

Putting aside writing a blog posting–rather than say, an academic, respectable and well thought and well-sourced article-(it is a waste of time to engage in such an argument with you I am sure you would agree)–I have “issue” with your tone. Just by way of example: The title, that you are “embarassed for them”. You sarcasm when for example you use language as “sinners”, amongst other things. Even if you do not agree with the Agudah, you should voice such disagrement in a respectful manner. Your current style is beneath the dignity of both the people at agudah as well your own–as someone holding a rabbinic position.

I do want to restate though that while you can continue to feign denial as to the Moetzes’ involvement in the statement, it is beyond doubt that Moetzes sets Agudah policy. Therefore, your overall topic as well as what I think was a cheap closing line is in clear tension with the Moetzes at best. Do you feel that you are learned and matuer enough to take such a bold position?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

I already wrote a post about the merits and demerits of hechsher
tzedek. This was a follow up prompted by the statement from AI.

The part about the Internet is hilarious. I am sure you, Mr. Leaving
Comments on Blog Posts would agree. Here you are defending
proclamations by AI while you use the very Internet they prohibit. It
is ironic, isn’t it? That is all the language of sinners was meant to
connote. A point we all on any blog agree with.

But the thing you should notice, is that as to substantive issue of
the Statement, there is no sarcasm or disrespect at all. Just
disagreement based on facts.

BayshanimRachmanim

Like I said it is your tone, not the substance necessarily. That mixed in with the sarcasm is substantive argument doe not change the overall tone of your message which was unbecoming and disrespectful.

But what about my last paragraph?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

I am skeptical on two accounts. 1) I don’t believe that AI runs every
statement by every member of the Moetzes. I just don’t. 2) Even if
they ran it by the Moetzes, I believe they distorted the facts as
evidenced by their Statement. They misstated the goals of MT and HT
blatantly, and if that is what they told the Moetzes, then the
imprimatur of the Moetzes is absolutely meaningless.

BayshanimRachmanim

Even if you were correct–which I do not belive you are–the fact remains that that was the statement attributed to them. Your comments then (the substantive ones) are therefore at odds with that of the official statement of the Moetzes. Therefore I ask again, do you believe yourself to be ready and worth yof taking such positions?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

I am willing to shoulder the “responsibility” of asking them to rethink their position based on the facts. Absolutely.

BayshanimRachmanim

And you find this to be the appropriate (and most productive) forum for such goals?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

It’s the only one I have.
BayshanimRachmanim

C’mon rabbi. Someone such as yourself can certainly find a way to contact (email, fax, phone, or otherwise) both the Agudah people as well as actual Moetzes members. Would that not be the correct, dignified, respectful, appropriate, and most of al–PRODUCTIVE approach (albeit without all the attention on the blogoshphere and social networks)????
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

No it would not. I believe the Internet is the appropriate forum for these issues. It is in public and for public discussion. No more hiding behind walled gardens.
Anonymous

It is the only one you have because you created for your own ego. You never were a person of substance who would go out there and do what needs to be done, unless you saw some great benefit for yourself. If you were after the truth you would seek the reasons behind their decision, not vehemently attack their approach. But this really about self promotion and you get none of that by trying to do things where no one can see.

This just proves my point “100 comments: http://finkorswim.com/2011/05/04/agudath-israel-misses-the-boat-on-magen-tzedek/“. That is from your twitter account. If it was about the truth you would not care about how many comments you have reached. Oh and by the way most of these comments have nothing to do with the topic, they are about other issues that are irrelevant to the original post. But we do not need to be truly honest only enough to fool everyone.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Excuse me? Where do you get off? I’ve dedicated my entire adult life
to teaching Jews about their heritage. Your name calling has reached
even more obscene levels. You have no idea what I do that no one else
sees. You make me sick.
Anonymous

Comprehension fail. Read again. I never said to know anything, and I never questioned what you have done, all I said is there is motive. But you are probably better at understanding my words than me, you are an attorney, you construe it for your interests.
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

@Choosetoswim:disqus its about spurring debate and discussion. so lots of comments are a good thing for everyone and @efink:disqus letting me know there are more comments lets me know i should be coming back to check on things. your personal attacks on Fink aside..
Anonymous

@Choosetoswim:disqus, ego? Are you nuts? It would be so much easier for R’ Fink to simply not say anything on these kinds of topics and stick to the regular dvar Torah, and tame news reports. Do you think his discussions about these things make his life easier? No way. Also, do you think the investment of time to maintain a blog is easy? It isn’t, it takes quite a lot of time, especially for bloggers that interact with their commenters. The only, or at least main, reason these things are discussed is because R’ Fink believes that the discussion improves the Jewish world. And I largely agree.

And in general, bloggers have to promote their blog if they want people to read and comment. That includes tweeting notices about new posts, tweeting about “hot” discussions going on (like 100 comments, etc), and it includes other folks (like me) tweeting links to the post. Look below and you will see that 5 or 6 people also tweeted links to this post. Are you going to claim that those people also did that due to ego? It’s amazing to me that a purported “believer” can’t believe that others believe as well, though perhaps differently on certain issues.

As far as why use a blog rather than some other method, it’s entirely obvious. On a blog hundreds or thousands of people from all walks of life and from all sorts of places can hear and discuss, in shul in front of the congregation only 100 people can hear, and some might not be paying attention (or aren’t interested). On the blog everyone is interested because they specifically chose to put it on their screen and read it and perhaps a few comment as well. Most importantly, the blog allows for an open and clean conversation that flow relatively well. That can’t happen anywhere else.

Anonymous

Bayshanim is there a way I can contact you off of this forum?

Anonymous

I can understand the statement, the placement of this “symbol” alongside an already existing hechsher gives the distinct implication that the hechsher is NOT ethical. or a kosher product that does not have this “symbol” alongside it is an unethical organization.

So what about the case of multiple hashgachot right next to each other? If adding a HZ next to a food hechsher distinctly implies this, then adding other hashgachot implies that some are not as not as good as others.

Here’s an example – http://twitpic.com/3oa8qy In this case, I suppose the OU hashgacha isn’t all that good, so they feel the need to add the CRC hashgacha, but that one isn’t really all that good either, so they add a Charedi Bet Din hashgacha as well.

Here’s another example – http://twitpic.com/2igvlx This one is really schtark, it has a chof-K, a CRC, and some Charedi bes din, along with being kosher for Pesach and informing the customer at exactly which temperature it was kashered. Oh, it’s also chalav yisrael.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

re: your last point, multiple hashgachas are fine. they dont imply one is NOT doing its job. it doesnt make it MORE kosher. there are some hechsherim that are not relied upon by everyone. having more than 1 is fine. but to invent a new symbol that says we are checking ethical treatment of animals and workers implies that kashrus organizations dont care about that at all (and that is a not to subtle way of saying, orthodox jews dont care about these things since they are looking to cut corners on ethics generally, but we do).

i dont have a problem with making a harsh statement.

would i have used their exact language, probably not. but would i have put out a statement, absolutely. I’m only upset the OU had nothing to say but that they dont object to the HZ.

Anonymous

Unfortunately the whole HZ thing began BECAUSE one of the largest (the largest?) OJ meat companies didn’t care about ethics enough.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

i think that is not only an assumption on your part, but an unfair and inflammatory characterization of the situation.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

No. They actually started in response to Agri. That is a fact.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

this i know, but i still think if you re-read Marks comment is remains (in its totality) an assumption that is unfair and inflammatory in nature…

Anonymous

Why do you think this? Remember, we are now post-conviction, the substandard level of ethics is not just alleged anymore.

BayshanimRachmanim

MarkSoFla: “Is “learning at YU” in conflict with Aguda’s beliefs? Kal Vachomer teaching at YU ”

That’s actually not true at all. (It’s about as good a kal v’chomer as Rabbi Fink’s diyyuk. Actually you would be right if your facts were correct so I guess your logical reasoning is sound )

There have been RIETS Rosh Yeshivas–past and present actuall–whose beliefs were very much alligned with that of Agudah and the like; far more so than with “YU” and certainly more so than with the average YU student. I don’t disagree with you that Agudah is opposed to YU as an institution. The conclusion that you draw from that however (ie what it says about people who are employed there) is contrary to reality.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

“There have been RIETS Rosh Yeshivas–past and present actuall–whose beliefs were very much alligned with that of Agudah and the like; far more so than with “YU” and certainly more so than with the average YU student. I don’t disagree with you that Agudah is opposed to YU as an institution. The conclusion that you draw from that however (ie what it says about people who are employed there) is contrary to reality.”

this is by FAR the most insulting and doucheist statement i have read on this blog thus far. firstly, putting YU in quotes is pathetic. secondly you have no idea what an average YU student is nor do you have any idea what YU’s beliefs are.

you have shown your true colors with this comment and have by implication denigrated an enormous group of orthodox jews. I hope you have the time in the next 6 months to track them all down and ask mechila.

I will no longer respond to you as it will only enable you to continue to be showcase your ignorace.

You know NOTHING about YU, RIETS, its roshei yeshiva, its students, Talmidim, faculty, curriculum, etc. So do us all a favor, go away and keep your ignorant thoughts to yourself.

I am disgusted beyond words….

take yourself and your friend/alter ego choosetoswim and go…

BayshanimRachmanim

MarkSoFla: “Is “learning at YU” in conflict with Aguda’s beliefs? Kal Vachomer teaching at YU ”

That’s actually not true at all. (It’s about as good a kal v’chomer as Rabbi Fink’s diyyuk. Actually you would be right if your facts were correct so I guess your logical reasoning is sound )

There have been RIETS Rosh Yeshivas–past and present actuall–whose beliefs were very much alligned with that of Agudah and the like; far more so than with “YU” and certainly more so than with the average YU student. I don’t disagree with you that Agudah is opposed to YU as an institution. The conclusion that you draw from that however (ie what it says about people who are employed there) is contrary to reality.
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

but thats not what you said

BayshanimRachmanim

But why? Please expalin what on earth you are referring to. I’m not really sure how you know what I may or may not know. That said, I clearly touched a raw nerve here yet I do not know why? I am not sure how you construed my comments but you seem to be off base. As to the YU in quotations–I did that because I was referring to YU as I believed Mark understands YU to be. My whole point was that he clearly lacked historical knowledge of the background of many RIETS Rosh Yeshivas. I an wondering if you do too based on your hyperemotional response. Please calm down; put away your crass tongue, and ARTICULATE what you wanted to actuall get across.
Anonymous

Daniopp- but thats not what you said

Which part did you object to then?

Fact: HZ folks started their campaign in response to the Agriprocessors scandal (and it is possible that they were also using it as an excuse to “slap” OJ kashrut organizations, or maybe that part came later).

Fact: Agriprocessors did lack certain ethics (while under OJ kashrut supervision).

So which part of the statement did you have a problem with?
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

“Unfortunately the whole HZ thing began BECAUSE one of the largest (the largest?) OJ meat companies didn’t care about ethics enough.”

i dont like your chosen closing remarks, thats all…

i agree there may have been legal lapses but i think your description is accurate…

Anonymous

And people are never convicted of crimes they never committed? There are many ethical concerns with the trial itself. A US court’s decision is by no definition a reason to condemn someone as unethical.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

No honest person reading the briefs can say that Rubashkin was
innocent. There is a paper trail of several counts of fraud. I read
them myself. It’s all on Westlaw.
Anonymous

I don’t know the definition of fraud but from the articles I have read there
is more than what was admitted into court. I always thought that fraud is
when you pull the wall over someone’s eyes, there seemed to be evidence that
the bank knew evrything. That undermines the charges of fraud. You seem to
believe he was undeniably guilty and deserved such a harsh sentence. There
js a lot more involved in the case then we are privy to. No reason to
condemn the guy that is all I am saying. It is foolish of us to judge what
happened. Westlaw?

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

—–Original message—–
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Read this for actual facts: Is the Rubashkin Saga / Trial Anti-Semitic?
Anonymous

I do not see any substantiated facts there only an article claiming there was no antisemitism. I never said there was. All I said was there is more to it than we know so we should be more careful when we condemn him. I also never said he was innocent all I said was he is not undeniably guilty. Stop misconstruing my words, please. He may have committed crimes, but there are many issues surrounding the trial and actual facts that would mitigate a lot of the accusations.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

The issue is not whether he got a fair trial. The issue is whether the entire frum community supported a corrupt criminal. I know first hand that one kashrus agency KNEW he was a crook so they didn’t give him their hechsher but they did not blow the whistle. That is a problem!
Anonymous

Really!? They should have called the US government? Don’t we say a berocha
three times a day against such a thing?

—–Original message—–
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

You really need to spend more time in the beis medrash. Or at least more time on my blog: Mesira (The Jewish Informant) in Halacha
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

the expression is: pull the wool over someones eyes, not wall….
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

or read the wonderful article on Child abuse and halacha that appeared on the RJJ Journal of Halacha and contemporary society

Confronting Child Abuse, Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, Fall 2002.
Anonymous

And people are never convicted of crimes they never committed?

It happens. But not in this case. This time it is entirely clear that they were guilty of substandard business ethics.
Anonymous

You sat on the jury, investigated it youself? Maybe you are more
knowledgeable than everyone, but my guess is you picked your side and then
found your facts to support it.

—–Original message—–
Anonymous

Choosetoswim – You sat on the jury, investigated it youself? Maybe you are more
knowledgeable than everyone, but my guess is you picked your side and then
found your facts to support it.

No, a person doesn’t have to be on the jury or perform a separate investigation to have an opinion on the case. I have no “side” and I don’t know any of the people involved.

Also please note that I said nothing about Rubashkin (the person) here, all I am saying is that the company, Agriprocessors, lacked certain ethics regarding the management of the business. Are you saying that you think the company operated its business completely ethically?
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

yea, and OJ didnt do it….
Anonymous

You are just proving my point the US justice system is unreliable. May I
ask what area of law you practice.

—–Original message—–
http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

I am a litigator

Anonymous

Out of curiosity, do you really believe there is no political motive behind the HZ? I find that hard to swallow. There is no way they are doing it solely for the ethical values they want to promote. It would be very naive to believe that, but I could be wrong.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

I believe that part of the motivation may be to “stick it” to frum
Jews for our failures to maintain a high level of ethics in business
(which we have not). But I believe their primary motivation is lshem
shamayim.

Anonymous

There are many Jews who are the most ethical in business and it is an embarrassment when some are not. Until you are in their shoes please do not judge them. I recently was in a dealing with someone in financial trouble and I believed everything I heard about his situation. It was wrong of me, and I had to be set straight, but he doesn’t represent everyone. My feelings were based on the chilul hashem that comes from all these things. I think we give too much attention to the individuals who do do wrong, but as Jews we are held to a higher moral standard. I think it is imperative that as a group we try not to make stereotypes about every Jew based on some. Some may have failed and they will be held accountable, but that is not our concern.

I am sure it was more than part, if it wasn’t they could have done it in a different way, which many posters here have mentioned. We do not need ot go into it all over again. This is all about the politics and little about the ethics.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

So you see ONLY politics from MT and ONLY lshem shamayim from AI. Do
you think you might have a little bit of a bias here? Just a little?
Anonymous

No I see politics on both sides but one is more glaring than the other.
Additionally, AI could not and should not have stood idly by. They had to
make a statement and tried to do it only within the OJ community, a far cry
from the approach MT took.

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

—–Original message—–
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

AI should have ignored or joined along. What they did was
counterproductive and divisive.
Anonymous

That is much different than the tone of your blog post. Also, there are
times when a stance although divisive must be taken. I am sure they
considered that before releasing the statement. You should give more
deference to AI they have an incredible amount for Jews in America. You
seem more like an ingrate when you take such a hard stance against them.
You would not be where you are today without them. Let’s not forget the good
they do for us, and stop focussing on things we don’t like that they have
done. Post something complimentary for once.

Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

—–Original message—–
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Tone shmone.
Anonymous

Real mature.

—–Original message—–
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

It’s just as mature as complaining about tone.
Anonymous

So you see ONLY politics from MT and ONLY lshem shamayim from AI. Do
you think you might have a little bit of a bias here? Just a little?

Well, a commenter on the other thread ( http://bit.ly/kQ7Pod ) discussing this said that “Aguda is today’s Chazal and may not be questioned.”

Maybe it’s the same guy?

Anonymous

I think Daniopp was referring to the characterization of Agri, not the HZ.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

TITCR

http://www.facebook.com/rabbihess Joshua Hess

Fantastic! Great Job with this. Well said.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

so many superlatives.

Anonymous

I am assuming this is a follow up to your belief that orthodox Judaism is only at such a peak beecause of the reform and conservative movements. I do want to know if you have ever thought that the gedolim advising the Agudah know more than you. I venture from previous experiences and knowledge that you haven’t. Have you ever stopped and taken a moment to say you may be wrong. Whether or not the conservative mark is an issue is not what you are drivng at, your sole interest is to knock the orthodox sect that you profess to stem from. That is fine but please, please, for the honor of your mentor remove his name from your bio. I know he does not agree with you and you know as well as I do that if he was somewhat technologically literate he would have asked you himself. When was the last time you asked advice from him and listened. Let your readers know, don’t hide it. Just yesterday you said Yoni are being honest.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

I know Rabbi Fink’s mentor listed in his bio. And I am confident in my understanding of him that he does not buy into or follow the aguda line.

Anonymous

How so?

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

I dont think it honors the man to involve him and use him as a tool for an argument on a blog.

Anonymous

You didn’t answer the question. You may be correct about that, but Fink’s bio needs to be fixed. “whom I still consult with on a regular basis” define consult and regular basis. I am confident it is far less than how any one of us understood it to mean. Misleading a group to believe there is approval from a mentor is what bothers me. He has always played his audience for fools, this will never change.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

you view “consult” in terms of daas torah I suppose, where every idea that pops into your head needs to be approved by a rabbinic authority. That isnt what consult means in reality, nor is it what it should mean. Rabbi Fink, just like me, and you can believe what we feel is correct, as my Rosh Yeshiva said, you should do what you feel is right in the eyes of God, asking a rabbi isnt necessary, unless you are really uncertain.

R Fink can have his own opinions, differ from his mentors opinion, ask him re things that he isnt certain about, and it all is legitimate. A protege isnt a clone of a mentor, a mentor guides his protege in a certain direction while still developing his own talents and personality.

I dont know where his time in NIRC fits in, but the fact that I agree often with Rabbi Fink, and that we are both products of the same Yeshiva and Rebbi, is not an accident. A certain praise that this yeshiva receives is that while you can tell a boy from Mir or wherever eles, you cant tell a boy from YFR, since there is no cookie cutter that passed over them. I heard this often while mixed with other yeshiva students while in Israel for a year a long time ago,

Anonymous

While YFR develops each childs own abilities and potentials they steer them in a mainstream direction. I am sure neither your Rosh Yeshiva nor RBBM are proud of this blog. The Torah allows for people to read into its the words that there is more than one god because the inevitable is inevitable. A yeshiva cannot stop someone from choosing his path but it can try. That does not mean they are proud or agree or even consider the student a student of theirs. Why don’t you ask RBBM about this blog yourself? Let me know what he says.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

” I am sure neither your Rosh Yeshiva nor RBBM are proud of this blog”

you clearly dont know anything abt them.

BayshanimRachmanim

HAHAHAHA
Anonymous

Discuss it in detail with them. Let me know what they say. I’d wager they are not proud, but then again what do i know. I didn’t do the research like you have.
Anonymous

@twitter-18520339:disqus What a shock and intellectually honest response. You decided that I don’t know anything about them because it is different than your opinion. Well done, I must be wrong. And you want arguments made at you to be backed up. At least be fair you can’t expect more from the other person if you don’t do it.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

what question are you referring to please?
Anonymous

You need to clarify this post, but if you meant why I said you want arguments to be backed up, I am referring to your dialog with rachmanim. Either way my point is your response to me was that you decided I did not know anything about them, because it disagrees with your interpretation of them.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

@Choosetoswim:disqus it seems you never actually read the posts below between myself and rachmanim, for if you had you would know how wrong you are. i offered several actual real proofs, unlike him who was speaking from his stomach. please re-read and then come back, until then i wont waste my time with you, you are a very angry person, not a good person to have any sort of discussion with,

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

ok, one example, although this is between you, me, and the internet.

He recounted that while at the kotel this year he saw a swearing in of IDF soldiers, he went over to one, or a group of them and told, them, I want you to know that because of what you’re doing, we are able to sit and learn and the zechus of all the torah that is learned all over the land of israel belongs to you!

Please tell me of another charedi rabbi who wouldn’t unvoluntarily give back what he just ate for supper from hearing this concepts. or that would at lease admit it publicly.

Or the time he criticized all NY/NJ yeshivas for not going to a particular persons funeral (RYCJ), stating, you think someones a gadol only bc they sign their names of kol kores? what about this man who this nothing but sit an learn for 90 years etc……

I can go on, but out of respect I wont. I answered your question exactly. now, good day.

BayshanimRachmanim

These are all admirable qualities–one’s undoubtedly shared by all the members of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah; I am quite certain that RMBB would be the first to agree with that. Also, I fail to understand what the lack off attendance at RYCJ’s levaya has anything to do with no towing the Agudah line. If anything, RYCJ (one is his rabbeim) was very much part of the Agudah camp. I bet you were not at the levaya but I’m quite certain that most, if not all of the Moetzes members were in attendance. I also find it odd for you to claim tha RMBB is not one to follow the Agudah line when he is the rabbi of, um–what was that shul called again?–oh right: the AGUDATH ISRAEL.

Just in case you’re wondering: What does the Moetzes have to do with this? Well, as clearly stated in the beginning of the Agudah statement, the Moetzes approved of the content and were the one who decided that the statement be release. So, this blog posting is nothing short of a slap in the face to the members of the Moetzes–one of whom I should mention is the Rosh Yeshiva of NIRC. I won’t get into the potential halachic ramifications of publicly disrespecting such people; undoubtedly everyone here already knows as we are in the presence of a learned alleged “posek”.

Have a blessed day.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

I was at the levaya. the crowd fit into the small yeshiva on 47th street (48th?) and there were a handfull of people standing outside.

I dont agree with you re other rabbis and their views on zionism.

R Joffen was not apart of any camp. most people never heard of him.

being hired to work at a shul that is called aguda has nothing to so with him as a man. they just needed the name when they started to get people, but being an aguda shul, anywhere really, means nothing. and in fact after i heard this story i suggested to someone that his shul’s name should be changed to mizrachi.

the moetzes is the advisory board of the aguda, whatever they do,. they consult with the moetzes.

this isnt a slap to anyone, it is the opinion of one man who is entilted to disagree when anyone and everyone.

BayshanimRachmanim

You said nothing about zionism. You said RMBB thanked them for their protection. By now construing that as zionism is a gross distortion of both what he said as well of his actual beliefs. Your original statement is very much in line with most, if not all members of the Moetzes and certainly, their official policies.

RYCJ was not officially a member of the Agudah, true. But he unquestionably was very much a part of the Chareid-Yeshivish camp and was close close friends with many of those rosh yeshivas. Please explain how and why you would disagree with that–if you can. Also, it is unclear what you mean when you say “most people” never heard of him. Are you referring to learned people or just the typical high school kid in YFR? He was a gaon olam and that is widely known.

I believe you are being disingenuous when you say that RMBB is merely an employee of a shul named Agudah. First, a rabbi is indeed associated with his shul’s identity, especially when the shul chooses to be identified as an Agudah. Also, he voluntarily attends and has (I believe) spoken at their events. His prime rebbe was a member of the Moetzes. And we both know that his word is final in his shul. But this whole discussion is silly; why don’t you just go ask him yourself about all this.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

he didnt say he likes israel, he said to secular IDF soldiers that the zechus of all the torah that is learned all over the land of israel belongs to them, if that isnt religious zionism, i really dont know what is.

RMBB’s boss also goes to the aguda convention, but only after 20yrs of not being invited, and its just a source of entertainment for these people, they arent going with any mission in mind. just a vacation.

and like R fink wrote, being a rabbi in an aguda has nothing to do with the man.

When RMBB told his students that they can read making of a gadol, should he have not gone to the aguda convention that very year? does the fact that he has a different outlook that main stream rabbis, mean that he shouldnt associate with the? of course not..
BayshanimRachmanim

“Making of a Gadol”? Huh? Do you mean the sefer written by Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky’s brother? What on earth does this have to do with the Moetzes or Agudah? Are you aware that Rav Zelig Epstein (the “unofficial” member of the Moetzes) approved of the book outright? What is with all these non-arguments?

And RMBB’s “boss” (disrespectful, btw) was not invited to SPEAK (a second time)–slight difference than invitation to attend.

And it may give you some sort of pleasure to think that he is not “mainstream” he very much is. You seem to just have a very uninformed view of what the rabbonim out there actually hold and believe. Time to get out a little more.
Anonymous

“Boss” He is your Rosh Yeshiva whom you speak with regularly. Show him a little respect.

Again, he may not agree with everything in the Agudah, but he will never publicly criticize them.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

he actually signs his paycheck
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

You say Rabbi Brown’s prime rebbe was a member of the Moetzes? That is a hoot! Rav Weinberg was his rebbe as was R’ Dovid Kronglas. Neither were on the Moetzes. If you are referring to Rav Ruderman, he was Rabbi Brown’s rosh yeshiva, not rebbe.
BayshanimRachmanim

Yes I was referring to Rav Ruderman who he was both mishamesh (what a concept ) and received semicha from. But I am pleased you got a “hoot” out of that. Now respond to the substance if you so choose.
Izzy

I dont know RMB at all, but the fact that his prime rebbi was a moetzes member, really doesn’t say much. I am assuming you are referring to RYYR, who has many talmidim (including his son-in-law), who would not fit in with the present day moetzes, I think the same can be said of the other members of the moetzes at the time when RYYR was on the moetzes.
BayshanimRachmanim

Really Izzy? You think that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky would not “fit in” with Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky? Rav Moshe Feinstein with Rav Dovid? Rav Shneur with Rav Malkiel? Rav Hutner with Rav Ahron Schechter?

Ignorance.
Izzy

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant to say that there are TALMIDIM of some of the other members of the moetzes at the time that RYYR was on the moetzes that would not fit in with the current day moetzes. Some examples that come immediately to mind are R Y. Weinberg (was not a moetzes member), and several of R’ Moshe’s biggest talmidim, who are major poskim nowadays, who certainly would not fit in with the latter day moetzes. But now that you mention it, while Reb Moshe might fit in on a moetzes with Reb David,, and same for Reb Yaakov/Reb Shmuel, and Rav Hutner/RAS, I am not convinced that you could say the same thing if you “mixed and matched” those pairings.

BayshanimRachmanim

And one last thing (sorry). While it is the mere opinion of “one man” that does not change anything. One may disagree (although, query as to whether it makes any sense for a relative amateur to disagree with some of the chachmei hador). However, comments like that they “missed the boat” and that one is “embarassed for them” is simply disrespectful–which when the subject is the Moetzes, is a serious offense. A little humility and excercising of mature discretion is in order.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

It says nothing about the Moetzes. Don’t make up facts.

And no, Rabbi Brown doesn’t turn his brain off because one or even
several rabbis makes a statement. Or just because his shul pays dues
to the organization. Please.

I was dan l’kaf zechus that they didn’t do the research because that’s
the most favorable explanation for this statement.

BayshanimRachmanim

“..doesn’t turn his brain off” Very cute, and nice straw-man argument. Then again, you can just “consult” with him and know definitively what his viewa are on this. One this if for certain: if he would disagree with the statement he would never articulate his disagreement with such boorishness.

As to the Moetzes, I quote from the very beginning of the statement: “Upon consultation with its rabbinic leaders and in accordance with their direction, Agudath Israel of America issued the following statement”. Perhaps I should be dan l’kaf zchus you that you are so uninformed to know what the statement actually said. The Moetzes (did you know that they are the Agudah’s rabbinic leaders?) DIRECTED them to issue the statement. So stop playing you silly hairsplitting games. Your entire piece is directed at the statement that was sanctioned, advised, and approved by the Moetzes. But it’s nice that you were “dan l’kaf zchus that they didn’t do the research. Perhaps they just are far wiser than you (I know, a shocking concept). Like I said before, a little humility.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

In previous statements I have seen the words: Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah.
This one does not say that. Hairsplitting or meduyak?
BayshanimRachmanim

Sorry, that’s not a diyuk where I come from. What do you find to be unclear about “upon consultation with its RABBINIC LEADERS and in accordance with their DIRECTION”? This was not signed my the Moetzes because it was a Moetzes-directed statement that was issued by the Agudah. That does not change the fact that the substance of the statement–which was the focus of your post–was the product of the Moetzes. Why can’t you just own that?
BayshanimRachmanim

Rabbi Fink–Are you taking the position that you doubt whether the statement was at the direction of the Moetzes or will you acknowledge that you concede that point? If you do, please explain why your post is not a disrespectful afront to the Motzes members? Or was that a consequence that you are comfortable with?
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

1) When I wrote the post I assumed it was not from the Moetzes. (I still do.)

2) If it was, the content would have been the same but with more deference.
BayshanimRachmanim

“1) When I wrote the post I assumed it was not from the Moetzes. (I still do.)

2) If it was, the content would have been the same but with more deference. ”

Instead of holding on to a belief that is contradicted by the statement, why not just email Rabbi Shafran at Agudah who I am sure can clear that issue up for you.

If you do receive such confirmation, would you take down your posting as it constitutes public disrespect for the members of the Moetzes?

Either way, I am left with the queation as to why–even in the scenario where it was not written at the direction of the Moetzes–you find it necessary to write in such an irreverant unclassy way. Why not just let the substance of your arguments speak for themselves? You clearly can be articulate. Why not use it for dignified, intelligent discussion?
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

What exactly do you have an issue with?
Izzy

Being somewhat familiar with the way Agudah operates (I have a friend who used to head up one of their regional offices), I am fairly certain that the statement came from the moetzes, or at the very least, at their direction. Regarding whether Rabbi Fink should be expected to reach out to Avi Shafran about the statement, given the fact that Rabbi Shafran does not allow comments to his posts at Cross-Currents (where this statement is posted) it would seem clear that he is not interested in dialogue. Rabbi Fink’s post is only an afront to the moetzes if one believes that there is something wrong with questioning or disagreeing with them. Clearly he does not think that, and neither do most commenters on this blog.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

And obviously, Bayshanim does not have a problem with it either, he is after all, using the Internet…

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

Rav Yonasan Sacks is the rabbi of the agudah of passaic. he is also a Rosh yeshiva at YU (i was in his shuir for years there)

just cuz someone is the rabbi of a shul with a specific name attached doesnt mean they are in “that camp” (as stupid as being in “that camp” sounds)

BayshanimRachmanim

Agreed. Rabbi Sacks shlta hwoever does not speak at Agudah events and I wonder whether Agudah execs frequent his shul. You would admit that the Agudah of Passaic is atypical as far as Agudahs go, would you not?. (Note: no disrespect intended. I have a lot of respect and admiration for Rav Sacks). The point is that while that is all true (that an Agudah can exist without the particular rabbi necessarily agreeing with all agudah-policies) that is simply not the case here. Azi wants to prove otherwise by stating that RMBB actually has opinions–ones that may sometimes differ from others within his “camp”. That does not change the fact that he is an “Agudah rabbi”, not place him outside of that “camp”.

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

I have no idea and cannot comment on RMBB (being that i dont even know who he is, what its stands for and have never heard of him before, outside of NY/Far Rockaway i dont think you’ll find many who have ever heard of him either, im sorry, i hope thats not mean or disrespectful)

All i know is that your point, that his shul bears the same agudah means hes an agudah guy, is not a valid argument.
BayshanimRachmanim

At the very least, it means his beliefs are not at variance with that of the Agudah’s. I have no such actual knowledge but I would posit that anything to the contrary would be inconflict with Agudah’s charter/agreement for the synogogue to bear their name. Is that a stretch?
Anonymous

BayshanimRachmanim – At the very least, it means his beliefs are not at variance with that of the Agudah’s.

Is “learning at YU” in conflict with Aguda’s beliefs? Kal Vachomer teaching at YU

Anonymous

He has never and will never publicly attack the agudah nor any other institution. Was his criticism out there in his shul? I know it was not it was in a shmooze he gave to the bochurim in his yeshiva. I heard the shiur on tape, you missed the boat. He wanted to instill chashevos hatorah in his talmidim. He does not make political statements, ever! You obviously do not know him at all, although you may have learned in his shiur.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

Do i know you?

Anonymous

I gleaned this form your comments on various posts here and your Facebook page. Sorry if I was wrong, but it seems that I was correct.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

is that a respnse to my question of whether we know each other. you seem to be familiar with RMBB and YFR, you said you head his speech on tape re RYCJoffen,

Do we know each other? Would i know you? i am not asking for your name, just a yes or no.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Why does he need to be anonymous? If you believe in something stand up for your beliefs. Be heard! Take credit for your words! Why do you hide CTS?
Anonymous

R’ E. Fink – Why does he need to be anonymous? If you believe in something stand up for your beliefs. Be heard! Take credit for your words! Why do you hide CTS?

Because the Internet is assur and it’s bad for shidduchim!
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

yes, dont say your name if you dont want to, but at least have the guts/decency to answer my question. i know many people, you could be anyone
Anonymous

You may know me I cannot say for sure I of know of you. I would guess you would know my name. Sorry I did not mean to offend you.
Anonymous

@ E.Fink I am sure you would love to know who I am but only to discredit me and for no other reason. Sorry but I won’t fall for your trap. Your either believe you are more intelligent than you are or you believe everyone else is dumber than they are. It’s probably a combination of both.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

I don’t care who you are. I don’t hold myself out to be more intelligent than anyone else. There is no trap. I am only pointing out the inherent weakness of anonymity.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

Why are all your comments buried in an angry and hostile tone?

I’m guessing you’re in 10th grade in YFR? amirite?
Anonymous

How’d you guess?

Thinking

Yiftach b’doro k’Shmuel b’doro. Everyone with adequate halachic knowledge can paskin as they see fit, especially those with smicha from a respectable Yeshiva. Indeed, R’ Fink may be entirely wrong here, but thats not really the point. Until the Sanhedrin meets and decides the matter, every rov may make his own determination. How much more so in a case like this when no one is paskining halacha l’maasaeh in issur v’hetter, but is merely making a statement of policy!

I’ll grant you, there may be good reason for a young posek to give a lot of deference to the Agudah’s position. But then again, perhaps not. It is well known that the Agudah has its own agenda (as do we all, unfortunately), and its statement on this matter is not without political and policy motivations. That may be fine for the Agudah rabbonim and those that follow their dictates, but others live in a different world, with different concerns, different people, and different obligations, and their positions on such matters must be developed accordingly.

Furthermore, I cannot help but be baffled by your continued harping on the mentor issue. Everyone has a rebbi, most people have several, but any teacher worth his salt does not demand not expect that his students follow his views blindly. A good teacher trains his students to think for themselves; to learn, understand, and utilize the sources to reach their own conclusions. If it is true that R. Brown taught R. Fink, then why can he not say so? Because R. Fink has gone on his own path, thought for himself, and proposed views that at times differ from his mentor’s? Do you do everything your mentor does? Do you dress precisely as he would like you to? Do you speak, study, earn a living, and maintain all your hashkafic views exactly how he dictates? If so, you are not a student, but a robot, and he is not a teacher, but a programmer.

Learn some more – study shulchan aruch in particular (try yoreh deah and siman 25 of choshen mishpat). You will see just how much lattitude every individual rov really has in deciding matters for himself and his community. No rov is obligated to follow any other, needless to say he is not obligated to follow the policy views of a political organization who rabbonim, members, and constituents differ from the rov’s circumstances about as significantly as night and day. You may disagree with R. Finks views. His mentor may disagree with those views. The Agudah moetzes may diasagree, as may every rov that you consider significant. He is still entitled to his own opinion, on halachic matters, and most certainly on hashkafic matters

Anonymous

Yiftach was the leader of his generation, not a young rabbi with a partial semicha. Knowing Basar Bchalav or Orach Chaim is not semicha in the traditional sense. He is by no means ready to be writing responsa, though I could be wrong. I am not trying to belittle his accomplishments, but a goat ain’t a rabbi because he’s got the beard. A real rabbi has many years of shimush by great rabbis.

Your line “but others live in a different world, with different concerns, different people, and different obligations, and their positions on such matters must be developed accordingly” is almost hypocritical. It is OK for you or him to take a stance to fit into their position (I find that strange. I thought it is the opposite, we try to retain our beliefs despite our situation, not change them to comply for acceptance), but for the Agudah to take their stance is wrong. This is typical liberal hogwash, everything is acceptable except for anything that disagrees with them.

I do not profess to do exactly as my mentor says, and one doesn’t have to follow exactly how their mentor guides them. You are precisely right, you should think for yourself. That does not mean that you will always be their pupil. It is possible to stray to far form that path, and no longer be a student of theirs. Why is this so difficult to accept. I am not saying he is wrong for his beliefs, but if it reflects back on his mentor incorrectly there needs to be accountability. My issue is not his beliefs, I understand why he has them, but they are not his mentors and he does not consult with him regularly.

Define rav.

Responsible Citizen

@Azi-I’ve experienced first hand on Face Book the terrible behaviour of NY Jews. Your point is well taken.
Rachel Danziger

Im happy to hear about this new project. We have something similar here in Israel. A group of young adults started it a few years back in an attempt to draw awareness to the fact that Judaism demands so much more than eating kosher and giving charity – it demands establishing a just society. and Im happy to say that today it isn’t an uncommon sight to see diners asking restaurants whether they have it – and leaving if they dont.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

Sadly, i have a brand new story to add to my list, i just got off the phone with a hassidic woman asking abt any avlb apartments in boro park, i said there arent any. she said “the super, hes a black, he said there is one…..”

OMG, what the hell is wronf with these people?!?!?

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

at least she said “black” and not something else….
Anonymous

@Azi Why is it so bad that she said that? Did it occur to you that maybe didn’t know the guys name and wanted to describe him to you but did not know much about him. Maybe your approach to her statement is the problem, not what she said. While it is very possible that she is a racist, you do not know that for sure. Give her the benefit of the doubt, she didn’t harm anyone by describing him the way they describe themselves. The word black is used everywhere to describe them. Have you ever applied for something and it asks your ethnicity? Black is always on the applications. Check out any college or grad school application. Had she used a different word you would be more validated, but I think you are a bit over th top with this story. I bet you wouldn’t have had a problem if a Hispanic guy said this to you over the phone. Can’t we all just get along? Why must we always choose to see the bad in people?

http://twitter.com/daniopp Daniopp

“Why must we always choose to see the bad in people?”

now THATS funny…
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

“A BLACK” that is what she said, not a black guy, “a black.”

Anonymous

HE is a black. What is the difference? I think you are reading into this too much because you are prejudiced against her type.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

lol, im prejudice against her type.

Izzy

So you are unhappy with her grammar?

Izzy

What’s wrong with that. Sounds like the term was used descriptively, not pejoratively.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

the problem is the way they treat non jews and view them.

THEY EVEN TREAT A JEWISH RESIDENT IN THAT BUILDING HORRIBLY bc he isnt hassidic, the man practically calls everyday to report new problems with his neighbors.

RSRH

Moreover, don’t hechsherim for “kosher” phones, “kosher” internet filters, “kosher” recreational activities, “kosher” professions, “kosher” shiduchim procedures, ect already water down the concept of “kosher” to something that bears little resemblance to the rules contained in yoreh deah?

If anyone is to blame for distorting “kashrus” it is us, who have overused the term so that it means little if anything at all. If we can use the “kosher” label for all kinds of things to which it halachickly doesn’t apply, why not add ethical production practices to the list of “kosher” things requiring rabbinic approval?

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Yes. I made these points of Twitter when others made the same claim about distorted the use of the word kosher.

Badatz toilet paper distorts kashrus more than a hechsher tzedek in my opinion.

rmja

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Magen-Tzedek-Responds-to-Agudath-Israel.html?soid=1102000701813&aid=iFB_FWlIhmg

Anonymous

I am not really replying to rmja but feel the need to make a comment and am new to this site and it seemed the only way. I must say that I am completely shocked & disgusted by what I have been reading here. The world is trying to kill our people and you seem to be acting as if you are in a yeshiva splitting hairs on the interpretation of a single letter in a reading. Sorry…I am not a truly observant Jew so I miss some of the subtle name-calling, etc. But I am a Jew is so very proud of her religion and her people….and a STRONG Zionist to boot!! I am a 66 year old grandma who lives in the SF Bay Area, and believe me when I tell you that I have witnessed some of the ugliest events in my life. Arabs yelling “death to the Jews” and worse…with their Jewish supporters clapping in agreement. But the difference is that I actually stand up to this garbage. I was attacked by Arabs and the “organized” Jewish community did nothing!Worse, their response was “we need to educate them when they are young”! Where are all of you and what planet are you living on? Don’t tell me that you haven’t witnessed similarities…or are your heads so far into your books debating toilet paper, etc. to have even noticed? Our people are in danger! We need people to put down their books and take a stand! What I want to know is when???

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

“We need people to put down their books and take a stand!”

So the “world is trying to kill us,” whatever that means so all Yeshivot should be shut down? Is that what you’re saying. Maybe America should shut down all of its colleges because terrorists want to kill Americans. You should stop doing your grocery shopping and quit your job because people protest against Jews. Quit your job today.

“or are your heads so far into your books debating toilet paper, etc”

why are you proud of being Jewish, and proud of your people, when you view their books and texts as toilet paper, or the subjects as similar to toilet paper (=meaningless). that sounds like something a SF protestor would say.

Anonymous

Azi – why are you proud of being Jewish, and proud of your people, when you view their books and texts as toilet paper, or the subjects as similar to toilet paper (=meaningless). that sounds like something a SF protestor would say.

To be fair, she is probably referring to “Badatz toilet paper” as mentioned above.
BayshanimRachmanim

“he actually signs his paycheck”

And disrespectful nonetheless. I’m sure you know that you have grossly misrepresented both your Rosh Yeshiva’s and RMBB’s opinions/shittas on this blog. Why not stop the charade and be honest?

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

the only opinion i attributed to anyone was writing the words tha RMBB spoke, which i actually have a video of,so i can prove it. otherwise it was just a discussion of whether RMBB tows the aguda line, which he does not.

therefor nobody misrepresented anyone, no body discussed any opinions/shittas, you must have been reading a different blog and got confused.

BayshanimRachmanim

Azi on finkorswim: “the only opinion i attributed to anyone was writing the words tha RMBB spoke, which i actually have a video of,so i can prove it. otherwise it was just a discussion of whether RMBB tows the aguda line, which he does not. therefor nobody misrepresented anyone, no body discussed any opinions/shittas, you must have been reading a different blog and got confused”

Azi on Twitter: “im sure i am misrepresenting RMBB somewhat, but am I really grossly misrepresenting him? what do you think?” and ” agree, although i think my calling him a religious zionist was too much however much i would like that to be true”.

Azi, one thing that can be said about both your Rosh Yeshiva and RMBB is that they are painfully honest people. Time for you to start emulating….

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

hello sherlock holmes.

as i wrote ealier, on this blog, which is where is this discussion is taking place, i never attributed anything to him that he didnt say directly. I quoted his words, of which i have recorded on video.

you;re a very poor debater, i did not quote him and then define him as being a zionist. YOU responded by saying i was calling him a zionist, when all i did was quote his own words, to that i responded that you mustnt understand what he was saying bc that was a very zionistic opinion, DID I SAY RABBI MOSHE BROWN WAS a zionist?i said what he said was clear whether or not you like it i or not. you said i called him a zionist when i didnt, i basically responded that his opinion doesnt make him the Gavad of the Eda HaChardies.

You are misrepresenting him, by trying to twist his own words to mean something else, bc you dont like what he said, that is disrespectful. whatever i wrote on twitter clearly was correct, i never claim ed he was a zionist.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

**whatever i wrote on twitter clearly was NOT correct, i never claimed he was a zionist. **

BayshanimRachmanim

Let me get this straight: First, you said A, then you said B. When challenged, first you say that you never said B, and then say that you did in fact say B but that B “clearly was not correct”.

But I’m a poor debater. Wake me up when you find some intellectual honesty. It may be hard for you to identify.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

show me where on this blog where this discussion is taking place, that i ever misrepresented rabbi brown, please quote the words you think are those words you are accusing me of writing,

please back up the words i wrote on twitter, since you think that its true, dont just quote something i wrote but was clearly wrong about in hindsight, you back up what i wrote in haste, and tell me where i said anything of the sort.

you are being intellectualy honest by focusing on peripheral issues that have little to do with the content of our discussion here. either back youself up, and prove that i cannot take back what i wrote on twitter or not.

and yes this is the sign of a poor debater, prove yourself to be competent and actually use the words i wrote here to prove your point.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

**intellectualy DIShonest **
BayshanimRachmanim

“please back up the words i wrote on twitter” They were YOUR words, not mine; why should I back up your words? The point is that you cannot even get your own story straight. As anyone can objectively see, you say one thing in this forum, and another when you are being candid; that is the hallmark of dishonesty. You want this debate to be limited only to what you say here. But I think the fact that you are espousing conflicting statements simultaneously albeit in two different forms is quite relevant. It shows you’re lack of good faith.
You appear to be a conflicted individual. Perhaps you should clear things up by confirming which of your claimedversions are correct with the Rabbi himself.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

I think my words here on this forum speak for themselves. anyone who reads them will see that i did not ever attribute any opinion to RB at all unless i quoted him directly, which was only once. Those are the facts.

either deal with the facts, or not, you can keep harping on twitter, but as i said the actual source of my words, here, do not imply anything you claimed that they do.

and again, you;re telling me to clear somthing up with rabbi brown, so you arent really understanding what is happening here. i quoted the mans own words, i didnt say anything else about him, you read that, you are relying on outside factors that have little to do with what you original claim was.

you wrote i claimed he was a zionist, i said his words are a zionistic opinion, not that the man is a zionist, either deal with my words and the facts or not, but again i think the reader will see you are wrong.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

——-”he actually signs his paycheck” And disrespectful nonetheless.

ok, so he doesnt sign his pay check, is that better? who made you the arbiter of what is respectful and what is not? in your mind its disrespectful, but i’d like to know what else is going on in that mind of yours

BayshanimRachmanim

“you wrote i claimed he was a zionist, i said his words are a zionistic opinion, ”
What exactly is zionistic about acknowledging the service that the IDF provides? That is not zionistic, it’s logic. Can you point to anyone in the Agudah who you think feels otherwise. Like I said earlier in this discussion, I believe a lot of the conflict that you envision is a product of your lack of information as to the opinions of the typical “chareidi” rosh yeshivas out there. But like I said, if you have factual information to the contrary, do share….

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

ok, thank god , now where getting somewhere,

the idea that a secular idf soldier who most likely never studied a word of Torah in his or her life, still ‘owns’ all the Torah of all the people learning torah in Eretz Israel, is a mizrachi/religious zionist opinion.

i DO have factual information, i provided you with a quote from rabbi brown, i told you his words. Let me guess you still dont believe Obama was born in the USa even though he let out his B cert.

i just tested this out with a friend, i told him the quote and asked what kind of a rabbi would say that, his reponse was probably a YU musmach, its a mizrachi type opinion (his words)

anyway, i am a student of rabbi brown, you know what my face looks like. at lease tell me what your credentials are to even comment on what he does or doesn think?

BayshanimRachmanim

Woah there cowboy, slowdown.
First of all, there is a difference between “owning” something and sayin the torah “belongs” to them–which was what you originally said. That said, the fact that you “tested this out with a freind” is hardly a proof of anything, especially when I raised suspicion that your opinions are rooted in your limited knowledge of the yeshiva world at large. Asking a friend does not dispell that. Provideing facts to the contrary about relevant rabbis and/or rosh yeshivas would.

I dont’t have any “credentials”. This is not about me. Stick to the substance. Let’s talk facts and not get into a ya-hu nuh-uh kind of thing.

http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

“Let’s talk facts and not get into a ya-hu nuh-uh kind of thing. ”

pot calling the kettle black

“limited knowledge of the yeshiva world at large.”

you dont know anything about me, I learned in the Mir in israel and in Lakewood BMG, but again, i dont know anything about you or why you think your opinion has any value.

again with the facts, i told you what he said, YOU dont like what he said, so you keep trying to deny it, but sorry buddy, he said it and you have to deal with it.

and yes, getting someone who doesnt know rabbi brown, and i didnt even say a name , agreeing that the opinion is a mizrachi opinion , is a pretty relialble argument as to what i was saying. someone who isnt a nogea bedover (you) is not a good source, since you clearly dont like the idea that rabbi brown shares an opinion with people outside his capm.

BayshanimRachmanim

“again with the facts, i told you what he said, YOU dont like what he said, so you keep trying to deny it, but sorry buddy, he said it and you have to deal with it. ”

Ok, now you’re getting me a little concerned about your lucidity. I NEVER expressed a problem with what you said he said. On the contrary, my point was that those statements are NOT outside the mainstream. I then repeatedly challenged you to provide facts indicating the contrary. You still have not. This has nothing to do with being a nogeah bedover, it has to do with knowledge. If I am suggesting that your thinking that such comments are outside the mainstream/non-Agudist are based on your lack of information, then why should I think that your friend is any different? I am impressed that you learned in Mir and BMG. Now some substantive facts please?
BayshanimRachmanim

As an aside, I would hope that as an alumnus of the Mir you are aware of R’ Chaim’s famous shmuessen about chayalim and what his shittas were in their regard as well as how he behaved toward them. I am sensing that you may not be based on your comments. Your thinking that RYCJ was unknown to the yeshiva world also leads me in that direction….
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

dont mix issues, i didnt tell you i was in BMG as my credentials, you said i had limited yeshiva world knowledge, and i obviously dont. but again your bad debating skills show by your purposeful missuse of my statement.

Yes, you accused me of calling rabbi brown a zionist when i clearly had not.

no, you never provided any facts at all, all you said, was yes they are in the mainstream and i said now they are not and you said yes they are. then i pulled in a third person who agreed with me, so if anyone even attempted to provide a drop of proof their claims it was ONLY me.

You really think for one second that R Malkiel Kotler would say those words? are you out of your mind?
BayshanimRachmanim

“dont mix issues, i didnt tell you i was in BMG as my credentials, you said i had limited yeshiva world knowledge, and i obviously dont ”
Not what I intended; apologies if that is how it sounded.
You were using the rabbi’s comments as proof that he was outside the mainstream. I challenged that as I do not believe that they are.
I do not know R’ Malkiel well enough to say definittively. I do know that is shittas are not necessarily representative of “Lakewood” as people commonly refer to it, nor is he always representative of the majority of the Moetzes, nor Agudah policy.
Could you see R’ Chaim as saying the same thing as Rabbi Brown? How about RYCJ? Would that not support my premise and undermine yours?
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

there are sociological differences between R chaim who was in Shanghai and R Malkiel (or any other) rabbi born and raised in NY. Many gedolim, pre the war were against zionism and after the holocaust changed their minds, R Yosef Eliyahu Henkin is one example.

that R chaim would make that statement, and yes, i am completely aware of his views, is understandable as per his backround and life experiences. A rabbi who is apart of the new world Yeshiva world would not share those opinions.

Do the aguda rabbis hate IDF soldiers of course not, they arent a part of the eda, but they view, and this is part of their official position that we dont like israel but we will deal with it since it is here. to go so far as to say that the IDF get all the schar for limud torah is above and beyond their official position.

the only other person who is a contemp. rabbi who is very pro embracing israel is R Aaron Yehuda Leib Sheinamn, that is what they yureshalmies go arounf defacing his pictures on wall sign in mea shearim and leave aloce all teh other pics even though the other rabbis approve of voting, his approval of voting is different.

i think the fact that the jerusalemites rip his picture and not r elyashiv, two people who ie seen togeteher at a voting rally, proves that their seeminlgy similar opinion is still different from each other. so here to, when rabbi browns statement is far beyond what anyone else would say.

AND MY LAST PROOF, is from the actual video which i can send to you, right before Rebbi begins this story he said to shut off the cameras, NO PLEASE TELL ME WHY HE WOULDNT WANT THAT RECORDED. the reason is because it is “controversial” for somone in his position and camp to express such views.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

and a second thing, yes r joffen was unknown in the yeshive world, that was exactly rabbi browns point in the the shmuze you somehow heard, he said that R yaacov wasnt valued by the yeshiva world, as proven by the poor attendance at this funeral, bc he didnt sign kol kores, etc…

exact;y what that means, is that he was unknown,

and again this is two issues ive spoken abt re rabbi brown, and in both i am only telling you his words.
Anonymous

R’ @efink:disqus, you need a new post that discusses Rav Browns opinions on Zionism/etc (and whther or not he approves of your blog,etc) for this whole line of commenting. We are pretty far afield from the topic of the MZ.

Shabbat Shalom Umevorach to all.
BayshanimRachmanim

So in conclusion–you think that R’ Chaim’s outlook is inconsistent with those held by people like Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky and Rav Dovid Feinstein?

As to Rav Jofen, under appreciated and unknown are two different things. You draw a conclusion of his being unknown based on that he was under-appreciated. I disagree. I think he was widely known as a gaon olam, an iluy atzum, and an emisdike tzadik. Perhaps we swim in different waters.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

i dont think anyones opinion needs to be consistent with other people’s opinions. Was R chaim great? yes. Is R Shmuel great? Yes. Do they have different opinions on certain matter of course they do! You’d have to be a fool to think that R Shmuel and R Dovis are just carbon copies of another person.

Was Rav Kook a great man, Yes (as per the claim of R Shlomo Zalman Aurbach), were some of the gedolim who didnt agree with him great? Yes. did they share opinions on everything? no.

Ok, R Joffen was unknown and the reason was because he wasnt they type of guy to be busy putting his signiture on kol kores. I think you;re nitpicking, I would say the even the avarage Lakewood guy never head of him, R Avrom Joffen most have, but R YC? i dont htink so.

As an aside, i just asked to other people in my office, if rabbi XYZ said the following…….what camp to you think he came from? one said “he must be a leftist” the other said “proabaly young israel”

that’s three for three.
BayshanimRachmanim

Azi: “As an aside, i just asked to other people in my office, if rabbi XYZ said the following…….what camp to you think he came from? one said “he must be a leftist” the other said “proabaly young israel”Now thats real scientific evidence–you mean there could be people out there who agree with you? I am shocked.

I never said that all those Gedolim’s opinions are the same or that they need to be in order to be great. My POINT was that if R Chaim’s opinion ARE consistent with that of two most prominent Moetzes members than your premise–that R Brown’s comment was out od the mainstream “agudah” circle is not accurate. Atah Maivin? With that in mind–what say you?
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

of course its not scientific evidence, whats your point? I simply told you i
asked three random people, all of whom recognized that statement as
being outside the mainstream. whats so hard to comprehend.

Either way, i dont need to bother with any other proofs other than the
fact that rabbi brown said to shut off the cameras before he said the
story. He wouldn’t ask for cameras to be shut off to say Moshe Kibel
Torah M’Sinai, he asked them to be shut off bc what he was about to say
was controvertial aka outside the mainstream.

as far as i an concerned that proof is the death blow, in think our
argument abt it is over, rabbi browns acctions in the video support my
claim, case closed, (and fyi, if you really cared abt the truth instead
of just being a cintrairian you would have asked to see the video,
something i offered t send you)

Ani mavin – and you’re just simply wrong. that is not a mainstream
opinion, I really dont know your backround but i can really tell that it
is you who has little knowledge of the yeshiva world. I know
everything, all the gossip and in-fights and disagreements between all
the roshey yeshiva.
BayshanimRachmanim

“Ani mavin – and you’re just simply wrong. that is not a mainstream opinion, I really dont know your backround but i can really tell that it is you who has little knowledge of the yeshiva world”

So the shittas of Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, Rav Ahron Leib Shteinman, Rav Shmuel Keminetzky, and Rav Dovid Feinstein are out of the mainstream? I would filter my water if I were you…

Of course, you can also stop trying to derive points from a comment made about a video and instead speak directly to the source…..Kol Tuv!
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

its so funny that you keep referring to R Dovid Feistein, its not just his opinions that are not part of the main stream. both of the feinstein brothers are not included in the yeshivish circles, r reuven maybe a little but R dovid certainly not.
BayshanimRachmanim

“its so funny that you keep referring to R Dovid Feistein, its not just his opinions that are not part of the main stream. both of the feinstein brothers are not included in the yeshivish circles, r reuven maybe a little but R dovid certainly not. ”

Wow. You really sealed the deal there Azster. You really ARE ignorant.

I really have nothing to say to someone that out of touch. Farewell.
http://twitter.com/azigra Azi

im not sure this has to do with ignorance,

if anyone is ignorant its the people who dont consider R Dovid to be important bc he wears a straw hat in the summer. i hope you dont agree with them.
Anonymous

@15559705b02dcc3f773a22e901eccfa4:disqus Are you a YFR boy? You seem to be very knowledgeable about this Azi guy. Any way I can contact you off this forum?
BayshanimRachmanim

“if anyone is ignorant its the people who dont consider R Dovid to be important bc he wears a straw hat in the summer. i hope you dont agree with them. ”

Let not your heart be troubled ( I do not agree with them). That said, you premise–that he’s not widely considered the biggest (or one of the biggest) posek in America–is deeply flawed and evidences what I suspected before–ie, that you have a very limited and rigid view of the yeshiva world.

Anonymous

The toilet paper was referring to a comment before mine . I would never say
that about our Torah or any of our holy books. I was stating that people
should start standing up to the SF protestors. Life is for us to live not
squander! No I don’t think everything should stop but I do think people
should wake up and see the dangers!

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M5TFA2LNGNXLLMLJJ6GVEK23BQ Willbe

Rabbi Fink,

You link to the press release, but don’t answer Agudath Israel’s main concerns.

- If “Magen Tzedek” is interested in certifying ethical businesses, why does this mark only appear on food?

- If they aren’t trying to redefine kashrut, why do they call themselves “the gold standard of kashrut”?

So many uneducated Jews already think that kashrut has to do with health, cleanliness, or ethics. None of this is true.

Jews are obligated in the laws of kashrut because G-d said so. It’s a chok. (V’lo yaavor).

This “Magen Tzedek” stamp preys on uneducated Jews, reinforces false assumptions about kashrut, and will lead many Jews to believe that they are eating kosher food, when the food itself might not be kosher.

Anonymous

@willbe:twitter – This “Magen Tzedek” stamp preys on uneducated Jews, reinforces false
assumptions about kashrut, and will lead many Jews to believe that they
are eating kosher food, when the food itself might not be kosher.

But the Magen Tzedek will only appear alongside a regular (ingredients, preparations, etc) hashgacha
, so why will the food be non-kosher?

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M5TFA2LNGNXLLMLJJ6GVEK23BQ Willbe

@MarkSoFla:disqus and then what happens when MT decides to change their policy and start certifying other food as well? After all, it would be discrimination on their part to not certify ethical business who produce food that the vast majority of Conservative Jews eat. (like pareve products w/ no supervision, and in many cases dairy products as well)

Anonymous

@yahoo-M5TFA2LNGNXLLMLJJ6GVEK23BQ:disqus , What happens? Well, first of all, let’s decide what to do if it actually happens. Second of all, if it does happen, we will treat it the same way as we treat other questionable or invalid hashgachot (or things that could be construed as a hashgacha). What happens when you see a “K” on products today? What happens when you see a “triangle-K” on meat products today?

As an aside, as far as I know, they’ve yet to put the label on anything. And this is after a few years of a lot of talking. Maybe the whole thing will die out before anything gets accomplished anyway. Who knows, this could be one of those left-leaning feel good things that certain folks like to talk up a storm about, but in the end accomplish little to nothing that effects any meaningful change (or any change at all in some cases).

Anonymous

The trinagle K on meat is kosher its just not glatt. He is not looking to sell it to the orthodox Jew its for the uninformed Jew who will buy a kosher product if its convenient. You can ask the rabbi yourself. You may not agree with this approach, I for one don’t because many people make a mistake about the hashgacha but that doesn’t render the food not kosher. He is trying to do a commendable thing it just comes at the expense of some unassuming OJ.

Anonymous

Choosetoswim, I know it isn’t glatt, just like quite a bit of meat sold in Israel. And that’s fine for Ashkenazy OJ’s, but what about Sefardi OJ’s? Why are you not concerned that Sefardi OJ’s are being “led to believe” that their meat is kosher? It’s an analogous case to the case we are discussing.

Shabbat Shalom all.

Anonymous

It isn’t analogous to the case we are discussing at all. The triangle k is not adding anything to halacha, HZ is trying to add to halacha. There is plenty of motive behind HZ, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the idea of an ethical stamp of approval. Quite the contrary it would be a nice thing, but keep it at just that, don’t add it as a kosher symbol at all, and apply it across the board. There are thousands of companies engaged in many illegal practices don’t pick out the OJ’s. They are trying to make a mockery of us, and nothing more. If they were really about ethics let them join with some vegan organization. Take it for what it is.

Anonymous

This is the typical way he posts. There is no content behind it, just a stamp of disapproval at the least and many times harsher. He is not intellectually honest in a post or reply to a comment. It’s not about the truth it’s about self promotion. I have gotten this with every comment I made, you can rad through if you want. He will probably discredit me without any real content. If his real issue was with Aguda he would contact them or discuss it with someone he feels is competent to make a difference, not post a condemnation that screams disgust at the Aguda. Honestly, I read this post and felt he is just another one of those who like to bash all orthodox organizations. He doesn’t deserve credit or attention for this, he deserves to be ignored and left to talk to himself.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

You should read your comments. You sound unhinged and a little imbalanced. Just saying…

Anonymous

I may sound a little imbalanced but its because of your opportunistic post to bash AI. This is not about the truth of HZ, it’s about an attack on AI. Your undertone is screaming “I HATE AI”. It is pretty clear that there is more to HZ than a moral standard, but you seem to be blinded by your hate.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Undertones? What is this? Read the words. Comment on the words. I don’t want to hear about tone (see above) or undertone. They mean nothing.

I have no hate for anyone. I am not blind either. Sheesh.

Anonymous

Your so cute with your responses, you should try comedy.

You love denying your intentions by claiming tone means nothings, but you know tone means everything. Try it on your wife see if your tone makes a difference, I sure she won’t mind how you talk to her. She probably knows that if you speak to her in an angry tone that you are really being gentile because tones mean nothing.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

@yahoo-M5TFA2LNGNXLLMLJJ6GVEK23BQ:disqus The hechsher tzedek is CLEARLY only going to be placed on product that ALREADY have a kosher sign on them. This is clear and underscores how the hechsher tzedek is in no way intended to replace existing kashrus. I can’t say it enough times until it gets into everyone’s head. Agudath Israel completely MISSED THE BOAT. They have no idea what HT is supposed to be and therefore they made their statement. I don’t need to address their statement when it is based on incorrect information.

AI preys on uneducated Jews as much as MT. AI tells people what to think about things even when they are obviously wrong.

They call themselves the gold standard because in addition to having a hechser on the food, there is a hechsher on the business.

I believe it applies to food because there is a large secular movement that is makpid to only eat food that is wholesome in every sense of the word. I am aware that most frum people don’t care about that kind of thing, but it is understandable that people do not want to eat food that is not made ethically. Also, most other industries are not dominated by Jewish businesses as much as the kosher food industry.

Anonymous

Where do you get your facts from?

“Also, most other industries are not dominated by Jewish businesses as much as the kosher food industry.”

Really? The food industry is probably represented by the least Jews compared to other industries. Most kosher products are produced as “incidently” kosher, an industry a term used to describe a product that happens to be produced kosher but only to expand their market, not because they are Jewish and want to produce kosher and then sell to everyone outside the kosher market. Most of these items are produced by non-Jewish companies, i.e. Pepsi Coke Nabisco or any other large food company. Jewish produced items are most often produced exclusively for the Jews not the non-Jewish market. Jewish companies are not found all across America, they are sold to exclusive Jewish supermarkets or supermarkets in highly Jewish areas.

I would also like to add that you have no basis for your claim that the AI does not know what HZ is about. You have merely decided so and therefore you need not address the concerns of the statement. Forget for a moment that you know exactly what is in the minds of those in AI and respond to the concerns of the statement substantiated by fact not conjecture.
http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

@Choosetoswim:disqus I was referring to shechita. I believe they want to give their hechsher on products produced by Jews so meat / dairy etc would be prime candidates.

And my basis for the claim that AI doesn’t know what HT is about is BASED ON AI’s STATEMENT! They MISREPRESENTED HT. I am dan l’kaf zchus that they did so by mistake. You are insinuating that it was on purpose. How dare you…

BayshanimRachmanim

Ignorant comments being dan l’kaf zchus people far more advanced is just a further extension of your brazen ignorance. If you had virtuous intentions here you would contact AI yourself and receive their explanation. Instead you sit on your blog making your comments without researching the accuracy to your claims and and undignified comments about a dignified organization. I realize it far more convenient to cling to your viewpoint rather than reaching out to them and perhaps engaging in something constructive. But I’m sure they appreciate your being “dan l’kaf zchus” tzadikel.

http://finkorswim.com E. Fink

Thanks

http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M5TFA2LNGNXLLMLJJ6GVEK23BQ Willbe

@efink:disqus the vast majority of kosher food available in the North American market is produced by non-Jewish companies. I’m sure if Cereal company A has a better health plan than Cereal company B, or A gives same-sex partner benefits and B doesn’t, the MT will rush in to make sure that “ethical” consumers buy cereal A.

Everything the MT stands for, is…welll…M.T. – empty of any connection to kashrut. By conflating kashrut and business practices, they do a disservice to an already ignorant Jewish public.

Kishmirin

After the stories came out about how Rubashkin animals were slaughtered, the whole idea of kosher slaughter became a travesty. Kosher hechsher is more an organized system of graft for rabbis rather than part of our mesorah.

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