Ground Zero Mosque vs. Downtown Manhattan Islamic Cultural Center: Video Debate

  • 0

I honestly cannot believe that this story still has legs.

Silly me. I actually thought that if people knew the truth about Cordoba House they would simply cease to oppose its existence. (See: The Mosque at Ground Zero Has A Marketing Problem)

Yet, weeks later, people still call it a mosque and people still think it is being built at Ground Zero and people still think it is being funded by Osama bin Laden and it will become a terror cell and the reason they are building the mosque is to proclaim victory for Islam etc etc etc.

I have seen several videos about the issue. I have placed two of the videos on this page. Watch them both and you decide who makes the more cogent, reasoned, fair arguments.

I present you with Keep America Safe’s latest video:

And I present you with Keith Olbermann (with whom I rarely agree):

  • A Member of the Lactose Commun

    There’s a good chance that “First they came for.. ” parodies will become a new meme.

    Just saying..

  • Curtis

    I believe triumphalism is the only reason why Imam Rauf and his hidden supporters and funders want to build an Islamic center and mosque. Unfortunately, there is a mosque. I invite you to disprove that point. Every single reference in the media includes “and a mosque.” Representing otherwise is mere deception. But we’re learning more everyday, aren’t we? It seems Iran will not be excluded from funding the project. Iran. Saudia Arabia. Muslims already have plenty of protectors. Why do you want to be one of them? Here’s a potential irony: The billlion plus dollars the US has given the Muslims in Gaza could be funnelled into the Cordoba project. Hamas may very well fund the project. . . with our dollars. They would love that!

    How many clues does one need: The naming of the project as “Cordoba.” Coincidence of 10 year anniversary of the attack and the proposed date of dedication of the building. Islamic history. The background and statements of Rauf. The nature and reality of Sharia and Taqiyeh. Umdat al-Salik. Muslim Brotherhood. MSA at UCI. (How dear are the rights to Muslim students of fellow Jews?) Deerborn Michigan. Rifqa Bary. Johnathon Pollard. (Okay, the last doesn’t really belong in this category. I leave it to your Talmudic brilliance to make a connection. And anyway, let’s not forget Johnathon! I hope that’s one area we can agree on.)

    When those (Rauf and Kahn) who represent and promote a religion and culture which throughout the world allows no democratic rule but just the opposite; when those who refuse to reveal all the facts and persons behind their organization; when those who wrap themselves in a flag and creed not their own; when those who show little empathy for the thousands who had family and friends slain; when those who purportedly embrace outreach and compromise refuse to compromise: well . . .

    Worse yet: For somone who has the power of Talmudic study and knows how to balance the Scriptures and Talmud, you sure seem to be decidedly “one-issue” stagnant. Is freedom of religious expession the only value to be considered? How will anyone be damaged if the project is moved or even ended?

    And do you not consider how Islam, in Europe, has managed to legislate “freedom of religion” as a singular right for Muslims so that when anyone criticizes Islam it is now categorized as hate speech? You want THAT freedom of religion? People in our own United States are afraid to voice their opposition to Islam’s brutal and primitive Quran and teachings. Criticize Mohammad. I kill you. Leave Islam. You’re dead.

    What has happened in Europe, you want that in America? Anti-Semitism on the rise. Jews being attacked without any provocation. Perhaps after two millinium of surviving by absorbing the hate and persecution and learning that resistance was futile has left you bereft of outrage. But not for us. It is altogether right that we use our power, not legal in this instance, but social and cultural, to express our outrage at deception and evil. We will keep it legal, but not friendly.

    And most discouraging, your straw man arguments are reprehensible. For while we have come to expect deception from the Muslims, so many of us are greatly saddened by such intellects and good hearts as yours and other progressives who lack the common sense to either expose the deception or think the American way is open to it. Arguing for your enemies. I know you think you’re doing the right thing, so more’s the pity. During World War II, couldn’t understand, didn’t believe. Oh no, surely not that. And now, is it any different. Do you have the history of the complicity, the ease with which the Muslims melded with the Nazi’s?

    Let’s just take the points you made. I’ll just refute them without naming them again: 1)Few think Osama is providing the funding, although there is little reason to not think so. Hamas came out for funding of it. Why not Osama. And we know the promoters have not been cooperative in revealing their funding. Recently we just learned they did not have all the rights to buy the adjacent building; 2) Most know by now the “Cordoba” house–renamed “park51”– is not right on top of the twin towers. There has been no disinformation campaign or suggestion of such. I haven’t even heard of anything remotely suggestive and even President Obama states the site is considered hallowed ground. If one has followed the news at all, one knows it is at the Burlington coat factory, and that opponents tried to convince the commission to declare the coat factory a landmark in order to prevent it being torn down and the mosque rebuilt there. There appears a subtle but real conviction in your thinking that all opponents must merely be uninformed, stupid people; 3) picking two videos where it is evident one is an emotional appeal and then comparing it to one handpicked as reasonable and mild. That’s a set-up fromt the word go. Handpicked anecdotal evidence! C’mon. Again, there is, in your blog, a slight but real slight against those who oppose the mosque as somewhat benighted creatures lacking intellectual capability. I might lack your intellectual powers, but I’m not the one being hoodwinked. You’re too smart for your own good. Just like 2000 years of philosophy winding up 2000 years of hard thinking with the postmodern assertion that nothing is knowable, but power is oppression and evil. These are the people who along with Muslims want to destroy Jerusalem. Forever. And you enable them. Help them. Understand them. Your wasting your time. And that’s a sin.

    But worst of all is the following statement: “If people only knew the truth.” Well the truth may never be known until it’s too late because we can’t know for sure what is in the heart of Rauf. Yet, as stated, the evidence doesn’t point to an all embracing love for all religions and mankind. He is a Muslim and most likely one that supports what happened on 911! He celebrates the attack and desires the implementation of Sharia law in the United States, which would mean the end of our institutions. He is not our friend. He is our enemy. Can I provide proof positive? No. Just some pretty heavy circumstantial evidence!

    He and his kind may live here but don’t expect me to believe their lies. And expect me to be watchful and ready. And expect me to shout like hell when they try to expand their influence. And really expect me to protest and get emotional when, on hallowed ground, they attempt to do something which even looks like its triumphalism.

    What does Talmud say about negligent trust? Israel was instructed, contrary to the other nations which Gd was going to deliver into their hands, to kill all the adult males of the tribes therein listed in the Torah because Gd did not want his people to be corrupted into their practices . Now, of course, we’re not living in Israel and we’re not conquering a land, but don’t we have a responsibility to safeguard our values and liberties and traditions and institutions much like a man safeguards his premises so that innocent guests are not injured? If done for guests, how much more for family? Can you really say that allowing this particular project to proceed is in the best interests of the survival of freedom? We see the march of Islam all over the world. Overtaking Europe. It has Pakistan. Wants India. All of Africa. Indonesia. Russia? What does Islam have to offer? Obama has attempted to appease and befriend them. His approval has decreased with them. We have nothing to prove to the world, especially when seeking approval imperils our survival.

    Your singleminded devotion to progressive and multicultural largesse is out of order here. People with the ability to balance the truth of a statement with who is saying it, ie., those with commons sense, aren’t about to accept a Trojan horse. I think the Greek allusion is especially appropriate here. There has always been the temptation for God’s people to follow the wisdom of the world or mix it with his Torah. The calamity here is that one who has been schooled in Torah and Talmud has had those treasures perverted by progressive deception. That you could even write such an article is worse than the proposed “community center” being built.

    • leslie friedman

      Curtis, whoever you are, thank you for so eloquently expressing what no doubt many feel but cannot say as well.

      • Dan Filomena

        thanks to both Curtis and Leslie. Courage in today has to be praised.

  • David Bookbinder

    There is no need for a long reply from me as I know that when people have such strong and passionate opinons about something there is no rational or reasonable way to change them. Like was said, JFK was going to bow down the pope, the facts didn’t matter. People still think Obama is a Muslim, an alarming 20%, even though the facts say otherwise. People will always get wrapped up in their belief and ideologies no matter what. As long as the mainstream doesn’t get caught up with the crazies on either side then we’ll be alright. The center will go on as planned, the crazies will deal and history will show how silly people are being. Just like JFK and the Pope, just like Obama and Islam, and just like Bush or Sadaam being involved in 9-11. Also, this is how Nazism rose to power. People on the fringes found reasons to hate and limit rights of people in the face of fact and rationalism. Let’s just make sure that we keep this kind of thinking to the fringes where it belongs.

    • Y S

      You posted 2 videos for readers to view and have challenged your readers to decide which one argues their case best. You are not comparing apples to apples here and are not being fair. In fact, I find your approach very cynical and insensitive.

      First you post a short clip highlighting victims of the horrors of 9-11. They are clearly just trying to invite the viewer into their world of pain and express their emotions. Then, in contrast, you post a video of an individual who is arguing his side of this issue. Rabbi, give me 12 minutes to rant and represent those who stand on the other side of this issue and then ask people to decide.

      Oldermann’s argument is a shamefully cynical one.

      He highlights the holocaust as a parallel only to say that he does not intend to do so, once that is precisely what he has done. Basic trick of alarmist and emotional persuasion.

      He also prefers to take the side of people who are not, but he fears may become, the victims of hatred as a result of his own prophetic arrogance, rather than to look to those who are actual, real victims with shattered lives.

      A typically idiotic and presumptuous view of the left wing who assume that they understand the pain of situations they will never encounter or experience.

      The bottom line is that his argument is so flimsy that he has me almost convinced that it ought not to be built.

      Typical ivory tower analysis…said with conviction but no substance and completely blinded to the facts and realities.

  • Thank you for posting this!

    It is important that people know the facts; and that they remember what it feels like to be discriminated against.

  • Curtis

    It is important that people know the facts. I offer the following:

    UN body says only religious scholars should be allowed to discuss matters of faith.

    GENEVA: Muslim countries have won a battle to prevent Islam from being criticised during debates by the UN Human Rights Council.

    On Monday Egypt, Pakistan and Iran angrily protested attempts by a humanist group to link Islam to human rights abuses such as female genital mutilation and so-called honour killing of women.

    For full article see:

    Should we really provide freedom to those who censor and discriminate and hide their atrocious human rights violations behind a hypocritical right to religious expression?

    • DavidBookbinder

      Curtis, you may not have heard this but I have said it to others about a thousand times. Read the Qur’an. Talk to a few different Muslim scholars. What are your credentials to be able to say that an entire faith (which includes every subcategory of that faith) behaves in a certain way? If someone said all Jews discriminate against women because of what happens on Haredi buses in Israel, no doubt some might say that is ludicrous. Just saying, besides the occasional internet news article who have you spoken to? What places of education have you learned at and which scholars to you speak with? I would just like to know. Saying one group of Muslims does something does not mean that all do.

    • Curtis – Should we really provide freedom to those who censor and discriminate and hide their atrocious human rights violations behind a hypocritical right to religious expression?

      Of course not! We should condemn the “atrocious human rights violations” with all our might. We should not condemn an entire religion. This is for two reasons, one, because it’s the right thing to do, and two, because condemning the entire religion is counterproductive.

      • Curtis

        Mark, I appreciate your impulse towards tolerance. Let that be our first impulse.

        However, I do believe it is necessary, in the case of Islam as it currently exists, to condemn an entire religion. Islam must be reformed, but it does not appear that Islam’s political leaders in the UN are very open to that idea.

        Consider the following memoradum of the Human Rights council dated 11 March 2010.

        Notice page 5, paragraph 21:

        Requests the Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance to report on all manifestations of defamation of religions, and in particular on the ongoing serious implications of Islamophobia, on the enjoyment of all rights by their followers, to the Council at its fifteenth session.

        I respectfully disagree with your pronouncements. We must condemn Islam because it is the right and productive thing to do to help it reform itself.

  • Curtis

    David, lets try and focus on facts. Those are hard enough to determine.

    I have some questions for you. The questions require facts which may be substantiated any way you wish and do not require that you are a scholar or that I know anything about you at all.

    Who made Medina rich and prosperous before Mohammad?

    Is it Judaism which threatens other nations?

    If the Mosque-near-ground-zero is a community outreach, why are the developers insisting on its completion when the community doesn’t want it?

    Are the following correctly quoted from the Koran regarding how non-Muslims should be viewed:

    ‘they are devoid of understanding’ (Koran 8:65)

    ‘ They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal’ (Koran 3:118)

    ‘ unclean…’ (Koran 9:28)

    ‘ your sworn enemies.’ (Koran 4:101)

    ‘They are the vilest of all creatures.’ (Koran 98:6)

    Regarding my earlier comment on the UN Human Rights Council: Is it not well chosen as a fact to prove the assertion that censorship, discrimination, and hyprocritical demands for freedom of religious expression are widespread among Muslims? In what Muslim country is it not true? Where have Muslims spread and brought the opposite?

  • I don’t understand. Proponents of the mosque, when arguing its not REALLY”ground zero”, isn’t that a bit obvious? I mean, does anyone REALLY believe it would be built on the foot prints of where the towers stood? When saying the “ground zero” mosque, its obvious a reference to the close local.

    Looking at that map, its even closer than I thought, and actually closer to where Building 7 collapsed.

  • A S

    “We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims,” Rauf said in 2005.
    “You may remember that the US-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations.”

    Perhaps we shouldn’t judge people based on one comment. What about many? How many more comments do we need unearthed before we realize that this imam is not a moderate.

    • You might want to read the rest of that speech before you decide on Rauf’s intentions with that statement. Pamela Geller has a way of distorting Rauf’s words by ignoring the context with which the words were said.


    • Curtis

      “Blood on its hands” is a term of art which means murder. Rauf is categorizing the sanctions against Iraq as murder for which the US is responsible. Sanctions are a psuedo or preliminary act of war. We know the Torah states “thou shall not murder.” It does not state, “thou shall not war.” War is terrible. Sanctions are terrible. But there are worse things which require sanctions and war. The blood of the innocent, however, are not on the hands of the liberators. How ugly to suggest and categorize such.

      If we follow Rauf’s logic, we hold ourselves guilty of murder for all those the US has killed in its various wars.

      Rauf shows himself well schooled in the theories espoused by extremists such as Ward Churchill and William Ayers. Its a very simple turn around and you can find the seed of their arguments in postmodernism, the philosphy of progressives. Any nation with power that uses that power to war is evil. (Until it’s the progressives turn.)

      The good guys are the bad guys and vice versa. Believe it if you will, but no amount of context cures the veiled but wrong accusation.

  • A S

    I actually did not see the video that Geller made. I just read it in a newspaper that was reporting the facts. The facts are clear. There is no context that can justify those statements. Statements that were not just made on one occasion. I know that commentators tend to take things out of context but this was not from her commentary.

    • You mean to say, you read it in a newspaper that didn’t check the facts and still reported the statement as fact.

      Don’t be lazy about your assertions. Do the research yourself. Click the link and read what it says.

      • Curtis

        Rabbi Fink, in all respectfulness for your qualifications and all, you can be something of a putz.

        Three imperatives in row! And to someone nice enough to give a thoughtful comment which is true.

        Read your Mary Poppins please. A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.

        • You don’t know me. Don’t call me names.

          You are the one who stormed in here and wrote, perhaps the most xenophobic comment I have ever seen on a blog anywhere. Don’t worry, you will have your moment in the sun. Your comment will be replied to, point by point. In the meantime, try your best to stay away from Ad Hominem attacks.

          • Curtis

            I wait for a brilliant and fact driven reply!

            You are going to convince me that Islam is good, and the mosque isn’t at ground zero, that Osama bin Laden isn’t funding it, and that it won’t become a terror cell.

            I concede the last three.

            As to whether or not you are putz or not, I didn’t call you a putz. I carefully stated you can be something of a putz. As I sure can be, but then I’m not a rabbi with the added measure of an obligation to be considerate of those with opposing opinions.

            Maybe G-d has sent me to teach you tolerance.

  • Pingback: In Which I Respond To The Most Epic Comment I Have Ever Seen | Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi()

  • Curtis has been replied to…

    Check it out:

  • We foget

    Christianity…. Let the historical record speak for itself…

    Ancient Pagans

    * As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

    * Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

    * Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

    * Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as “temple destroyer.” [DA468]
    * Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

    * Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]

    According to Christian chroniclers he “followed meticulously all Christian teachings…”
    * In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
    * In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
    * The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.


    * Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
    * Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
    * Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
    * 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
    * 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops “pacified and civilized” Ireland, where only Gaelic “wild Irish”, “unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing.” One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that “the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies… and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie”, which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused “greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde”.
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

    Crusades (1095-1291)

    * First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
    * Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
    * 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
    * Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
    * After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians “did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy’s] tents – save that they ran their lances through their bellies,” according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
    * Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine “the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians” said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
    * Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    In the words of one witness: “there [in front of Solomon’s temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes”, and after that “happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour’s tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude.”
    * The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: “It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished.” [TG79]
    * Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that “even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition”. One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
    * Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered “in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ”. [WW45]
    * Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
    * Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

    Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

    Heretics and Atheists

    * Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
    * Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
    * Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
    * Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
    * Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
    * After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
    * Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
    * Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
    * Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
    * John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
    * Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]
    * University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
    * Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
    * Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.


    * From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
    * In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]

    Religious Wars

    * 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
    * 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
    * 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
    Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, “a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by.” [SH216]
    * 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
    * 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, “cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals… and then dumped him into the river […but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [… and] dragged what was left … to the gallows of Montfaulcon, ‘to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows’.” [SH191]
    * 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. “In a single church fifty women were found beheaded,” reported poet Friedrich Schiller, “and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers.” [SH191]
    * 17th century 30 years’ war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]


    * Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
    * In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
    * 694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
    * 1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities’ Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
    * 1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
    * 1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
    * 1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
    * 1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
    * 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
    * 1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
    * 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
    * 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
    * 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
    * 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
    * 1391 Seville’s Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored “badges of shame” that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
    * 1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
    * 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

    Native Peoples

    * Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
    * Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, “ought to be good servants … [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion.” [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as “idolators” and “slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order,” his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as “beasts” because “they eat when they are hungry,” and made love “openly whenever they feel like it.” [SH204-205]
    * On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, “making the declarations that are required” – the requerimiento – to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And “nobody objected.” If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

    “I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you … and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church … and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him.” [SH66]

    * Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: “justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England … to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, … and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ.” [SH235]
    * In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of “the marvelous goodness and providence of God” to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as “for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess.” [SH109,238]
    * On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
    * The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
    * As one of the culprits wrote: “So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous.” [SH69]
    * The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As “they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell.” [SH70]
    * What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    “The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties … They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles… then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive.” [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    “The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts…Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs.” [SH83]
    * The “island’s population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus’s arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out.” Eventually all the island’s natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were “forced” to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus “the Caribbean’s millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century”. [SH72-73] “In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated.” [SH75]
    * “And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next.” [SH75]
    * Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
    * “When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead.” [SH95]

    Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

    * Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: “Their Warres are farre less bloudy…”, so that there usually was “no great slawter of nether side”. Indeed, “they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men.” What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
    * In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown – “being idell … did runne away unto the Indyans,” – to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    “Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: ‘Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe’.” [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: “This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia” methods were different: “when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community” down. [SH105]
    * On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the “Peqout War.” The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
    * When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief’s pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: “And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished … God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven … Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies”: men, women, children. [SH113-114]
    * So “the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance”. [SH111].
    * Because of his readers’ assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    “Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them…” (Deut 20)
    * Mason’s comrade Underhill recalled how “great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers” yet reassured his readers that “sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents”. [SH114]
    * Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists’ own words: “blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them.” (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
    * The surviving handful of Indians “were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for ‘a share’ of the captives, specifically ‘a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good’.” [SH115]
    * Other tribes were to follow the same path.
    * Comment the Christian exterminators: “God’s Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!”
    “Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!” [TA]
    * Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. “Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians ‘grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie’, advised the Council of State in Virginia, ‘we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne’.” [SH106]
    * In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
    * In a single massacre in “King Philip’s War” of 1675 and 1676 some “600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a ‘barbeque’.” [SH115]
    * To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive – a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 – 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 – 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive – 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
    * All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
    * A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
    * In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

    More Glorious Events in U.S. History

    * Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England’s most esteemed religious leaders, in “1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs ‘to hunt Indians as they do bears’.” [SH241]

    * Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church (“I long to be wading in gore”) had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs’ waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: “There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed …” [SH131]

    * By the 1860s, “in Hawai’i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands’ native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to ‘the amputation of diseased members of the body’.” [SH244]

    20th Century Church Atrocities

    Catholic extermination camps
    Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
    In these camps – the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar – orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi “Sicherheitsdienst der SS”, watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]

    * Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters – the Viet Minh – had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-Buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican’s spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam “Soldiers of Christ”, a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.
    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

    “Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp.”

    Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of Buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in “detention camps.” Out of protest dozens of Buddhist teachers – male and female – and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded – mostly in street riots – 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].
    To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI’s lost their life.

    * Christianity kills the cat
    On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests – with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg – additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital – her body was littered with wounds – her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel’s grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it’s extensive witch burnings).
    This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]

    * Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small African country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
    For quite some time I heard only rumors about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
    Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany – a station not at all critical to Christianity – the following was stated:

    “Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda’s capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees – women, children, old – being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
    According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
    In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive…” [S2]

    More recently the BBC aired:

    Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
    BBC NEWS April 19, 1998

    A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994…

    * As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

    If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick.


    K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.

    K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.

    P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.

    S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.

    Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.

    Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.

    H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.

    M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.

    A.Manhattan, The Vatican’s Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
    See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.

    J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.

    Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.

    D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.

    German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.

    A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.

    F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.

    H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973.
    (This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers’ writings).


    Estimates on the number of executed witches:

    * N.Cohn, Europe’s Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
    * R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
    * J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.

    all of us… there are guilty parties no matter the religion.

  • Pingback: Litchfield Connecticut: A Revolutionary War Town Erupts in a War Over a Religious Center and Synagogue | Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi()