Comments on: The Real Orthoprax Issue http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/ The Rabbi on the Beach at the Shul on the Beach Thu, 24 May 2012 01:32:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Orthoprax Jews and Orthoprax Christians | Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1769 Orthoprax Jews and Orthoprax Christians | Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:37:18 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1769 [...] there’s been a lot of talk of Orthopraxy within the Orthodox Jewish world. See my post: The Real Orthoprax Issue. There are even some blogs dedicated to its theology (and challenging the tradition OJ theology). [...] [...] there’s been a lot of talk of Orthopraxy within the Orthodox Jewish world. See my post: The Real Orthoprax Issue. There are even some blogs dedicated to its theology (and challenging the tradition OJ theology). [...]

]]> By: Daniel http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1758 Daniel Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:27:07 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1758 It is occurring, but very slowly, so you don't notice it (ever watch a clock?). there are approximately 6,489,000 Jews in America only about +2 million identify as orthodox in some manner shape or form. (That to me says it is happening. Additionally, there is a maxim..."There are no atheists in a foxhole," when jews were less educated farmers living in agrarian societies, every day was a struggle/"foxhole;" therefore attrition was likely because prayer and a direct relationship with Hashem more likely. Being educated and somewhat self sufficient has the opposite effect. It is occurring, but very slowly, so you don’t notice it (ever watch a clock?). there are approximately 6,489,000 Jews in America only about +2 million identify as orthodox in some manner shape or form. (That to me says it is happening. Additionally, there is a maxim…”There are no atheists in a foxhole,” when jews were less educated farmers living in agrarian societies, every day was a struggle/”foxhole;” therefore attrition was likely because prayer and a direct relationship with Hashem more likely. Being educated and somewhat self sufficient has the opposite effect.

]]> By: Mark http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1787 Mark Fri, 12 Mar 2010 19:37:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1787 The Law - <i>the “largesse” doesnt need to stifle anything or anyone, every single detail, chumrah, kulah, minhag, is a teachable moment for our kids.</i> Unfortunately, it often teaches them that a lot of what we do is nonsense. That may sound Orthoprax, but it isn't, it's true. This is especially because our schools do a bad job at Jewish education. And it definitely does stifle the teaching of the real principles, and the inculcating of joy into the practice. Shabbat Shalom all! The Law – the “largesse” doesnt need to stifle anything or anyone, every single detail, chumrah, kulah, minhag, is a teachable moment for our kids.

Unfortunately, it often teaches them that a lot of what we do is nonsense. That may sound Orthoprax, but it isn’t, it’s true. This is especially because our schools do a bad job at Jewish education. And it definitely does stifle the teaching of the real principles, and the inculcating of joy into the practice.

Shabbat Shalom all!

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1786 rabbifink Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:10:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1786 I agree. For those who reject the theology of orthodox and want to be orthoprax, go right ahead. I have no problem with them. (I don't intend on showing how, why and where I disagree with R' Pruzansky, I am concerned with a real issue, not the imagined issue he has.) The Orthoprax by Default don't WANT to be orthoprax, yet, in effect due to their ignorance, they are. That is a solvable problem that we should be concerned with. I agree. For those who reject the theology of orthodox and want to be orthoprax, go right ahead. I have no problem with them. (I don’t intend on showing how, why and where I disagree with R’ Pruzansky, I am concerned with a real issue, not the imagined issue he has.)

The Orthoprax by Default don’t WANT to be orthoprax, yet, in effect due to their ignorance, they are. That is a solvable problem that we should be concerned with.

]]> By: WB http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1784 WB Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:05:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1784 But Orthodox rabbis view Reform and Conservative as "not Jewish" and feel that Jews should be going to Orthodox shuls and having Orthodox rabbis officiate weddings and have kosher ketubahs. So there are many people who respect the Orthodox establishment as "the establishment" but may not be believers. If someone doesn't really buy into the religious stuff or does not feel spiritual but decides to attend an Orthodox Yom Kippur service, shouldn't that be seen as a good thing? Does that make them Orthoprax? How can a religion demand its followers to BELIEVE in the religion when the religion defines them as Jews simply by their birth and never requires them to make an intelligent or emotional decision to have a connection with G-d through traditional observance? The Orthoprax article is hypocritical. Either let Jews belong to Reform temples or accept that there will be Orthoprax in your midst in shul... But Orthodox rabbis view Reform and Conservative as “not Jewish” and feel that Jews should be going to Orthodox shuls and having Orthodox rabbis officiate weddings and have kosher ketubahs. So there are many people who respect the Orthodox establishment as “the establishment” but may not be believers. If someone doesn’t really buy into the religious stuff or does not feel spiritual but decides to attend an Orthodox Yom Kippur service, shouldn’t that be seen as a good thing? Does that make them Orthoprax? How can a religion demand its followers to BELIEVE in the religion when the religion defines them as Jews simply by their birth and never requires them to make an intelligent or emotional decision to have a connection with G-d through traditional observance?

The Orthoprax article is hypocritical. Either let Jews belong to Reform temples or accept that there will be Orthoprax in your midst in shul…

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1783 rabbifink Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:38:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1783 Simcha, thanks for stopping by. I agree that the amount of information that is needed to be taught is pretty minimal. But the paradigm shift of allowing broader views and asking of questions is not minimal. Simcha, thanks for stopping by.

I agree that the amount of information that is needed to be taught is pretty minimal. But the paradigm shift of allowing broader views and asking of questions is not minimal.

]]> By: Simcha S. http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1782 Simcha S. Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:27:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1782 Excellent post, I fully agree. Sadly, most people who identify themselves as "frum" have no idea what they believe and why. They could not defend their faith in any meaningful way. In my view, the difference between the person who knows why he does not believe, and the person who knows not why he does believe is minimal. Excellent post, I fully agree. Sadly, most people who identify themselves as “frum” have no idea what they believe and why. They could not defend their faith in any meaningful way. In my view, the difference between the person who knows why he does not believe, and the person who knows not why he does believe is minimal.

]]> By: The Law http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1781 The Law Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:26:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1781 maybe, but the remedy isnt making judaism less focused on our duties, its educating so that ppl understand the "why" behind all the large mesorah. the "largesse" doesnt need to stifle anything or anyone, every single detail, chumrah, kulah, minhag, is a teachable moment for our kids. my father used to make our family succah using lavud, dofen akuma, gud achis, etc... (obviously not using moshe misinai tools together as that would be unacceptable) He did this in order to use our practical mitzvah observance as a teaching moment. ever since my love and appreciation for halacha and all its intricacies, probably why i also ended up becoming "The Law" in my secular career.... education is paramount and thats the answer... maybe, but the remedy isnt making judaism less focused on our duties, its educating so that ppl understand the “why” behind all the large mesorah.

the “largesse” doesnt need to stifle anything or anyone, every single detail, chumrah, kulah, minhag, is a teachable moment for our kids.

my father used to make our family succah using lavud, dofen akuma, gud achis, etc… (obviously not using moshe misinai tools together as that would be unacceptable) He did this in order to use our practical mitzvah observance as a teaching moment. ever since my love and appreciation for halacha and all its intricacies, probably why i also ended up becoming “The Law” in my secular career….

education is paramount and thats the answer…

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1779 rabbifink Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:41:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1779 I specifically did not attack any specific parts of Rabbi Pruzansky's article. Please don't try and bait me. I specifically did not attack any specific parts of Rabbi Pruzansky’s article. Please don’t try and bait me.

]]> By: Mark http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1777 Mark Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:07:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1777 The Law, I think you just solved the conundrum of why Orthopraxy is on the rise!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not kidding at all and I thank you. Early Judaism had a mesorah, but that mesorah was relatively simple and made up of basic concepts. One God. No idols. Eat this and not that. Honor parents. Tefillin. Say Shema in AM and in PM. Etc. That relatively compact mesorah could be passed from father to son over their lifetime together rather easily. Today we have an exhaustively large mesorah that is impossible for anyone to keep straight in their own minds much less pass it to their children over their lifetime together. So we write everything down, and we make up all sorts of new stuff (call them "chumrot" or minhagim or whatever) that are endlessly coming at us making us feel that it is hopeless to ever be able to learn it all well enough for ourselves, and definitely impossible to teach to our children. This "largesse" is stifling the joy of our religion for many (most?) people! Put on tefillin because you are supposed to put them on, but instead people have mirrors, they constantly adjust them, they want special batim, special straps, "mine are better than yours", Rabbeinu Tam, Rashi, Gassot, Peshutim mehudarim, Peshutim, Dakot, different sizes, ktav Beis Yosef, Arizal, Velish, etc. Just talking about it is exhausting and sucks the joy out of the mitzvah! The Law, I think you just solved the conundrum of why Orthopraxy is on the rise!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m not kidding at all and I thank you.

Early Judaism had a mesorah, but that mesorah was relatively simple and made up of basic concepts. One God. No idols. Eat this and not that. Honor parents. Tefillin. Say Shema in AM and in PM. Etc. That relatively compact mesorah could be passed from father to son over their lifetime together rather easily.

Today we have an exhaustively large mesorah that is impossible for anyone to keep straight in their own minds much less pass it to their children over their lifetime together. So we write everything down, and we make up all sorts of new stuff (call them “chumrot” or minhagim or whatever) that are endlessly coming at us making us feel that it is hopeless to ever be able to learn it all well enough for ourselves, and definitely impossible to teach to our children. This “largesse” is stifling the joy of our religion for many (most?) people!

Put on tefillin because you are supposed to put them on, but instead people have mirrors, they constantly adjust them, they want special batim, special straps, “mine are better than yours”, Rabbeinu Tam, Rashi, Gassot, Peshutim mehudarim, Peshutim, Dakot, different sizes, ktav Beis Yosef, Arizal, Velish, etc. Just talking about it is exhausting and sucks the joy out of the mitzvah!

]]> By: The Law http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1776 The Law Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:30:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1776 after the avos there was a mesorah handed down but it had meaning it wasnt that well i put on tefillin b/c grandpa did, its i put on tefillin b/c grandpa told me why. big difference... after the avos there was a mesorah handed down but it had meaning it wasnt that well i put on tefillin b/c grandpa did, its i put on tefillin b/c grandpa told me why.

big difference…

]]> By: Mark http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1742 Mark Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:20:40 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1742 The Law - <i>If you can only say we do this b/c that's what grandpa did, that's sad and <b>ultimately destined for failure</b></i> This sounds logical, but then I think - how did Judaism survive for it's first few thousand years of having the vast majority of its people relatively uneducated in the practice of Judaism, and in fact, did what their fathers and grandfathers did? So, if this is the case, when do you expect "ultimately" to occur? The Law – If you can only say we do this b/c that’s what grandpa did, that’s sad and ultimately destined for failure

This sounds logical, but then I think – how did Judaism survive for it’s first few thousand years of having the vast majority of its people relatively uneducated in the practice of Judaism, and in fact, did what their fathers and grandfathers did?

So, if this is the case, when do you expect “ultimately” to occur?

]]> By: The Law http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1741 The Law Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:10:33 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1741 <i> <b> (It’s ironic because the Orthoprax, by dint of their theology value the acts of Judaism MORE than the beliefs of Judaism. While the Orthodox need to balance the two and one could be Orthodox and still sin all the time. That is why we have Yom Kippur and the mitzva of Teshuva. In other words, I would expect an Orthodox Jew to sin at least as often as an Orthoprax. But I digress.) </b></i> The issue is and nafka mina is that the dox may sin just as much, but they believe it is still a sin and something wrong, the prax dont as there is little meaning behind the act. I think you are missing the forest for the trees with regard to the overall point of the rabbi's essay. Going through the motions, or doing the acts devoid of meaning leads to a path of nothingness. this is not a LW/RW/MO/Yeshivish issue, its a belief issue. this isnt RJ/CJ/OJ issue. its a religious issue. its how we can transmit to the next generation, our children what it means to be jewish. If you can only say we do this b/c thats what grandpa did, thats sad and ultimately destined for failure (see Halachik Man from the Rav for more; also see his essays on mimetic tradition, but i digress) its not name calling, and if you think it is you are being superficial. Its about identifying a problem. going through the motions, regardless of religious label is bad. it leads to a meaningless "religious" life that will end in cynical attacks on religious beliefs and traditions. or, down the road to ethical monotheism... (It’s ironic because the Orthoprax, by dint of their theology value the acts of Judaism MORE than the beliefs of Judaism. While the Orthodox need to balance the two and one could be Orthodox and still sin all the time. That is why we have Yom Kippur and the mitzva of Teshuva. In other words, I would expect an Orthodox Jew to sin at least as often as an Orthoprax. But I digress.)

The issue is and nafka mina is that the dox may sin just as much, but they believe it is still a sin and something wrong, the prax dont as there is little meaning behind the act.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees with regard to the overall point of the rabbi’s essay. Going through the motions, or doing the acts devoid of meaning leads to a path of nothingness.

this is not a LW/RW/MO/Yeshivish issue, its a belief issue. this isnt RJ/CJ/OJ issue. its a religious issue.

its how we can transmit to the next generation, our children what it means to be jewish. If you can only say we do this b/c thats what grandpa did, thats sad and ultimately destined for failure (see Halachik Man from the Rav for more; also see his essays on mimetic tradition, but i digress)

its not name calling, and if you think it is you are being superficial. Its about identifying a problem. going through the motions, regardless of religious label is bad. it leads to a meaningless “religious” life that will end in cynical attacks on religious beliefs and traditions. or, down the road to ethical monotheism…

]]> By: Mark http://finkorswim.com/2010/03/11/the-real-orthoprax-issue/#comment-1740 Mark Fri, 12 Mar 2010 03:59:39 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=2254#comment-1740 While on the elliptical exercising this evening, I was thinking ... and the biggest problem with R' Pruzanskys take on this issue came to me. For most people the only way to know if they believe or not is to know what is in their minds. And it's simply not possible for R' Pruzansky to know that information about anyone except perhaps his closest loved ones (and even then, very likely not). You can't tell externally because different people express their belief in different ways, for example, during davening, some shuckel vigorously, some sway ever so gently (like me), and some stand completely still, some close their eyes, some keep them open, etc. While on the elliptical exercising this evening, I was thinking … and the biggest problem with R’ Pruzanskys take on this issue came to me. For most people the only way to know if they believe or not is to know what is in their minds. And it’s simply not possible for R’ Pruzansky to know that information about anyone except perhaps his closest loved ones (and even then, very likely not). You can’t tell externally because different people express their belief in different ways, for example, during davening, some shuckel vigorously, some sway ever so gently (like me), and some stand completely still, some close their eyes, some keep them open, etc.

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