Comments on: Law School and Learning Ethics http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/ The Rabbi on the Beach at the Shul on the Beach Wed, 23 May 2012 12:51:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Podcast Ipsa Loquitur: Ethical Attorneys, Hugh Laurie, Cleavage in Court | Social Media Law Student http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-891 Podcast Ipsa Loquitur: Ethical Attorneys, Hugh Laurie, Cleavage in Court | Social Media Law Student Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:07:03 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-891 [...] of Josh’s articles was discussed by a rabbi. The original posting was actually on Legalgeekery.com. [...] [...] of Josh’s articles was discussed by a rabbi. The original posting was actually on Legalgeekery.com. [...]

]]> By: Haveil Havalim for Sept. 13 / Elul 24 « http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-890 Haveil Havalim for Sept. 13 / Elul 24 « Sun, 13 Sep 2009 05:52:06 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-890 [...] Fink presents Law School and Learning Ethics posted at Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi, saying, “thanks for your [...] [...] Fink presents Law School and Learning Ethics posted at Pacific Jewish Center | Rabbi, saying, “thanks for your [...]

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-889 rabbifink Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:18:09 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-889 It teaches ethics was not the justification. Teaching bad ethics was mentioned as a problem with proctored exams. I countered that even with a proctor we are not teaching bad ethics. And yes, we would call that person a naval birshus hatorah. Just because its allowed does not make it okay. It teaches ethics was not the justification. Teaching bad ethics was mentioned as a problem with proctored exams. I countered that even with a proctor we are not teaching bad ethics.

And yes, we would call that person a naval birshus hatorah. Just because its allowed does not make it okay.

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-899 rabbifink Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:18:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-899 It teaches ethics was not the justification. Teaching bad ethics was mentioned as a problem with proctored exams. I countered that even with a proctor we are not teaching bad ethics. And yes, we would call that person a naval birshus hatorah. Just because its allowed does not make it okay. It teaches ethics was not the justification. Teaching bad ethics was mentioned as a problem with proctored exams. I countered that even with a proctor we are not teaching bad ethics.

And yes, we would call that person a naval birshus hatorah. Just because its allowed does not make it okay.

]]> By: Offwinger http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-898 Offwinger Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:14:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-898 I've heard a lot of reasons for traditional law school exams and a lot of reasons against. Not once has anyone raised "It teaches ethics" as a justification. As for being a good technical halachist, I guess what I mean is that if you treat your Torah observance as though you were a pro se client, it has the potential to do damage, even if you become great at avoiding halachic violations and meeting obligations. I’ve heard a lot of reasons for traditional law school exams and a lot of reasons against. Not once has anyone raised “It teaches ethics” as a justification.

As for being a good technical halachist, I guess what I mean is that if you treat your Torah observance as though you were a pro se client, it has the potential to do damage, even if you become great at avoiding halachic violations and meeting obligations.

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-897 rabbifink Fri, 11 Sep 2009 00:09:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-897 Offwinger: More than a valid theory. It is probably closer to the truth that what Legal Geekery thinks. According the Legal Geekery writer, Law School exams should also train you for Law School practice where there are no proctors. I think that even with proctors the exam can prepare you for successful after school ethics. Being a technical Halachist is only part of absorbing Torah into ones life-stream. But without its regulations and limits it may be impossible to integrate Torah into one's life. Offwinger:

More than a valid theory. It is probably closer to the truth that what Legal Geekery thinks.

According the Legal Geekery writer, Law School exams should also train you for Law School practice where there are no proctors. I think that even with proctors the exam can prepare you for successful after school ethics.

Being a technical Halachist is only part of absorbing Torah into ones life-stream. But without its regulations and limits it may be impossible to integrate Torah into one’s life.

]]> By: Offwinger http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-896 Offwinger Thu, 10 Sep 2009 23:58:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-896 Here is a different theory: Law school exams are often meant to simulate exam taking, for the purpose of training a student to take the bar exam. The bar exam is extremely strict about what materials or objects students may and may not bring with them. The bar exam features strict proctoring, including strict monitoring of rooms, access to facilities (e.g., the bathrooms), and strictly enforced time limits. The environment is necessarily a tense one, one where you are under extreme scrutiny. More restrictive law school exams (which doesn't happen in every course) are simply "practice" for the bar exam. Students who only test in "comfortable" situations (no proctors, access to all the materials they want, snacks, etc.) may be at a disadvantage when they have to perform for real. As for the Torah, I've often thought that being a good technical "halachist" (for lack of a better one) significantly robs observance of both its spiritual and ethical underpinings. Here is a different theory:

Law school exams are often meant to simulate exam taking, for the purpose of training a student to take the bar exam.

The bar exam is extremely strict about what materials or objects students may and may not bring with them. The bar exam features strict proctoring, including strict monitoring of rooms, access to facilities (e.g., the bathrooms), and strictly enforced time limits. The environment is necessarily a tense one, one where you are under extreme scrutiny.

More restrictive law school exams (which doesn’t happen in every course) are simply “practice” for the bar exam. Students who only test in “comfortable” situations (no proctors, access to all the materials they want, snacks, etc.) may be at a disadvantage when they have to perform for real.

As for the Torah, I’ve often thought that being a good technical “halachist” (for lack of a better one) significantly robs observance of both its spiritual and ethical underpinings.

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-895 rabbifink Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:37:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-895 Of course, making it part of our lives should be an explcit goal. It certainly was in my home when I was growing up. Parents can take care of that aspect of chinuch. We share a similar idealistic idea of what Torah should be and unfortunately what the reality of our society is... Of course, making it part of our lives should be an explcit goal. It certainly was in my home when I was growing up. Parents can take care of that aspect of chinuch.

We share a similar idealistic idea of what Torah should be and unfortunately what the reality of our society is…

]]> By: Real-Time Jew http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-894 Real-Time Jew Thu, 10 Sep 2009 04:27:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-894 I woul like to think that the "practice for the not-directly-related-Torah world" approach could work. As far as why it's not working right now - could it be that whether it works or not might depend on whether this goal is made explicit as part of our practice? It doesn't surprise me or lots of other folks that the result of teaching (in the chareidi world at least) that goyim are inherently lower on the scale of humanity than "we" are, and that their laws and knowledge are not worthy or our respect results in people that do not apply their "practice" outisde the Torah world. Were those destructive attitudes to change, and the idea that Torah practice is intended to make use better people in all situations.... I woul like to think that the “practice for the not-directly-related-Torah world” approach could work.

As far as why it’s not working right now – could it be that whether it works or not might depend on whether this goal is made explicit as part of our practice?

It doesn’t surprise me or lots of other folks that the result of teaching (in the chareidi world at least) that goyim are inherently lower on the scale of humanity than “we” are, and that their laws and knowledge are not worthy or our respect results in people that do not apply their “practice” outisde the Torah world.

Were those destructive attitudes to change, and the idea that Torah practice is intended to make use better people in all situations….

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-883 rabbifink Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:14:06 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-883 It works fine. People just don't know how to use it... I saw that crazy camp director post. I am sure the issue is more complex than it seems on the surface. I do know of a camp that had a staff member posting very negative things on a blog and together with the staff member's parents they had the staff member remove the blog. It works fine. People just don’t know how to use it…

I saw that crazy camp director post.

I am sure the issue is more complex than it seems on the surface. I do know of a camp that had a staff member posting very negative things on a blog and together with the staff member’s parents they had the staff member remove the blog.

]]> By: rabbifink http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-893 rabbifink Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:14:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-893 It works fine. People just don't know how to use it... I saw that crazy camp director post. I am sure the issue is more complex than it seems on the surface. I do know of a camp that had a staff member posting very negative things on a blog and together with the staff member's parents they had the staff member remove the blog. It works fine. People just don’t know how to use it…

I saw that crazy camp director post.

I am sure the issue is more complex than it seems on the surface. I do know of a camp that had a staff member posting very negative things on a blog and together with the staff member’s parents they had the staff member remove the blog.

]]> By: tesyaa http://finkorswim.com/2009/09/09/law-school-and-learning-ethics/#comment-892 tesyaa Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:05:00 +0000 http://finkorswim.com/?p=1131#comment-892 "The Torah and its commandments are practice for the not-directly-related-Torah world when we do not have explicit rules and regulations to abide by." It doesn't seem to be working very well. Lots of people people seem to think if it's not explicitly in the Torah, it's irrelevant. By the way, as a camp director yourself, did you see this post? http://superraizy.blogspot.com/2009/09/big-sister-is-watching-us.html “The Torah and its commandments are practice for the not-directly-related-Torah world when we do not have explicit rules and regulations to abide by.”

It doesn’t seem to be working very well. Lots of people people seem to think if it’s not explicitly in the Torah, it’s irrelevant.

By the way, as a camp director yourself, did you see this post?

http://superraizy.blogspot.com/2009/09/big-sister-is-watching-us.html

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